�* griffiths was salute the aside. mr griffiths was salute the secured _ aside. mr griffiths was salute the secured with the door open so here the daily— secured with the door open so here the daily working gyro pouch to the postman _ the daily working gyro pouch to the postman and game design for the work and he _ postman and game design for the work and he went— postman and game design for the work and he went to the secured door. woman_ and he went to the secured door. woman tried to pull the door open while _ woman tried to pull the door open while the — woman tried to pull the door open while the other man attacked the screen _ while the other man attacked the screen with a sledgehammer. if we look screen with a sledgehammer. if we took we _ screen with a sledgehammer. if we took we can— screen with a sledgehammer. if we look we can see that the photograph. mr griffiths _ look we can see that the photograph. mr griffiths attempted to get the door shut, which point he believes he was _ door shut, which point he believes he was hit — door shut, which point he believes he was hit on the left hand with some _ he was hit on the left hand with some sort— he was hit on the left hand with some sort of metal bar, possibly a crowhar~ _ some sort of metal bar, possibly a crowhar~ at — some sort of metal bar, possibly a crowbar. at this point mr griffith stop fighting another two minutes of the secure _ stop fighting another two minutes of the secure area. at this point the assistant— the secure area. at this point the assistantjulie griffiths the secure area. at this point the assistant julie griffiths crouched down _ assistant julie griffiths crouched down and hid behind the site. thank you, that can come down. i think— thank you, that can come down. i think the — thank you, that can come down. i think the post office determined that mr— think the post office determined that mr griffiths was culpable for the robbery. that mr griffiths was culpable for the robbery-—

the robbery. that was the assessment. _ the robbery. that was the assessment. i _ the robbery. that was the assessment. i wasn't - the robbery. that was the | assessment. i wasn't sure the robbery. that was the - assessment. i wasn't sure how the robbery. that was the _ assessment. i wasn't sure how much it was. . , , ., it was. initially, they found him entirely culpable _ it was. initially, they found him entirely culpable for— it was. initially, they found him entirely culpable for the - it was. initially, they found him i entirely culpable for the robbery, for breaching procedures, and required — for breaching procedures, and required him to repay £38,000. some of the _ required him to repay £38,000. some of the money, i should say, i think 515.000 _ of the money, i should say, i think £15,000 had been recovered from the robbers— £15,000 had been recovered from the robbers hy— £15,000 had been recovered from the robbers by the police because of the information thatjulie robbers by the police because of the information that julie griffiths provided. then that amount, for which _ provided. then that amount, for which he — provided. then that amount, for which he was found to be to blame, £38,000, _ which he was found to be to blame, £38,000, was reduced to £7,500. yes. so the post office _ £38,000, was reduced to £7,500. yes. so the post office was _ £38,000, was reduced to £7,500. yes so the post office was blaming him for the _ so the post office was blaming him for the robbery? for so the post office was blaming him for the robbery?— for the robbery? for not complying with certain — for the robbery? for not complying with certain procedures _ for the robbery? for not complying with certain procedures at - for the robbery? for not complying with certain procedures at the - for the robbery? for not complying | with certain procedures at the time, yes. ie with certain procedures at the time, es. . ., ., ., , yes. ie leaving the door open while the mailman _ yes. ie leaving the door open while the mailman came _ yes. ie leaving the door open while the mailman came to _ yes. ie leaving the door open while the mailman came to collect - yes. ie leaving the door open while the mailman came to collect the i yes. ie leaving the door open while i the mailman came to collect the gyro pouch? _ the mailman came to collect the gyro ouch? �* the mailman came to collect the gyro ouch? . . ,., the mailman came to collect the gyro ouch? �* ., ,., ., ., “ the mailman came to collect the gyro ouch? . . ., pouch? and also the time look on the safe was not —

pouch? and also the time look on the safe was not set, _ pouch? and also the time look on the safe was not set, i _ pouch? and also the time look on the safe was not set, i think. _ pouch? and also the time look on the safe was not set, i think. that's - safe was not set, i think. that's from looking at the papers. i didn't know this at the time. fin from looking at the papers. i didn't know this at the time.— know this at the time. on the 23 september _ know this at the time. on the 23 september 2013, _ know this at the time. on the 23 september 2013, i _ know this at the time. on the 23 september 2013, i think - know this at the time. on the 23 september 2013, i think you - know this at the time. on the 23 i september 2013, i think you know that mr— september 2013, i think you know that mr griffiths drove his car to a lay-hy— that mr griffiths drove his car to a lay-by on — that mr griffiths drove his car to a lay—by on the a41, got out of his car and — lay—by on the a41, got out of his car and deliberately stepped in frant— car and deliberately stepped in front of— car and deliberately stepped in front of an oncoming bus. yes. he was seriously _ front of an oncoming bus. i9:3 he was seriously injured, front of an oncoming bus. iles he was seriously injured, taken front of an oncoming bus. i9; he was seriously injured, taken to hospital— was seriously injured, taken to hospital and remained in a coma for about— hospital and remained in a coma for about three — hospital and remained in a coma for about three weeks. on the 11th of 0ctoher— about three weeks. on the 11th of october 2013, about three weeks. on the 11th of october2013, his about three weeks. on the 11th of october 2013, his life support machine _ october 2013, his life support machine was switched off and he passed _ machine was switched off and he passed away that day. it was later concluded — passed away that day. it was later concluded by a coroner that mr griffiths— concluded by a coroner that mr griffiths had taken his own life. i want _ griffiths had taken his own life. i want to— griffiths had taken his own life. i want to see what happened within the post office when it was notified of what happened to mr griffiths. pol

0016~ _ can we look at page four, please? and scroll— can we look at page four, please? and scroll down. on the 23rd of september 2013, the day that mr griffiths — september 2013, the day that mr griffiths walked in front of a bus, at 5.02. — griffiths walked in front of a bus, at 5.02. mr— griffiths walked in front of a bus, at 5.02, mralan griffiths walked in front of a bus, at 5.02, mr alan bates e—mailed paula _ at 5.02, mr alan bates e—mailed paula vennells, you and some other people _ paula vennells, you and some other people including jo swinson with the subject. _ people including jo swinson with the subject, post office, read this.

this— subject, post office, read this. this afternoon i received the following e—mail. a prime example of the thuggery being exerted on defenceless sub—postmasters is the post office denied legal representation are arrogant and uncontrolled post office personnel. despite _ uncontrolled post office personnel. despite assurances from on high that this type _ despite assurances from on high that this type of— despite assurances from on high that this type of thing is in the past, it's this type of thing is in the past, its clear— this type of thing is in the past, it's clear from the post office's actions — it's clear from the post office's actions that it's still alive and active — actions that it's still alive and active. and then the e—mail he received — active. and then the e—mail he received - _ active. and then the e—mail he received — hello, alan, iam writing on behalf— received — hello, alan, iam writing on behalf of— received — hello, alan, iam writing on behalf of my son—in—law martin griffiths. _ on behalf of my son—in—law martin griffiths, who has been in touch with you — griffiths, who has been in touch with you about the treatment doled out to _ with you about the treatment doled out to him — with you about the treatment doled out to him by the hierarchy at the crown— out to him by the hierarchy at the crown office in chester. he had an armed _ crown office in chester. he had an armed raid — crown office in chester. he had an armed raid in may and they have intimated — armed raid in may and they have intimated he was culpable. had him at the _ intimated he was culpable. had him at the kangaroo court, where he was not allowed — at the kangaroo court, where he was not allowed representation of his own _ not allowed representation of his own he — not allowed representation of his own. he was a broken man then. but he was _ own. he was a broken man then. but he was sent— own. he was a broken man then. but he was sent for last friday to attend — he was sent for last friday to attend a _ he was sent for last friday to attend a meeting with the crown 0ffice _ attend a meeting with the crown office personnel again, and all week, — office personnel again, and all week, he — office personnel again, and all week, he has not been himself. this

morning _ week, he has not been himself. this morning he — week, he has not been himself. this morning he drove off to work, got out of— morning he drove off to work, got out of his— morning he drove off to work, got out of his car and walked in front of the _ out of his car and walked in front of the bus — out of his car and walked in front of the bus. he is dangerously ill in hospital— of the bus. he is dangerously ill in hospital at— of the bus. he is dangerously ill in hospital at liverpool. the post office — hospital at liverpool. the post office had driven him to suicide. all the _ office had driven him to suicide. all the family are at the hospital. i'm all the family are at the hospital. l'm alone — all the family are at the hospital. i'm alone waiting by the phone for further— i'm alone waiting by the phone for further news of him. i would urge you to _ further news of him. i would urge you to publicise this, another incident — you to publicise this, another incident caused by the bully boys at the crown _ incident caused by the bully boys at the crown office. may god forgive them _ the crown office. may god forgive them mr— the crown office. may god forgive them. mr bates continues, i'm aware of martin's_ them. mr bates continues, i'm aware of martin's case and i know he was terrified _ of martin's case and i know he was terrified to — of martin's case and i know he was terrified to raise the shortages with the — terrified to raise the shortages with the post office because ofjust this type _ with the post office because ofjust this type of thing happening to him. but the _ this type of thing happening to him. but the post office got him in the end _ but the post office got him in the end. regardless of what may or may not have _ end. regardless of what may or may not have occurred to him, why did the post _ not have occurred to him, why did the post office have to hound him to the post office have to hound him to the point _ the post office have to hound him to the point of— the post office have to hound him to the point of trying to take his own life? _ the point of trying to take his own life? despite numerous warnings never— life? despite numerous warnings never to— life? despite numerous warnings never to attend any discussion without — never to attend any discussion without legal representation,

martin, — without legal representation, martin, trying to be helpful, didn't take anyone with him as per the conditions — take anyone with him as per the conditions the post office demand. if conditions the post office demand. if the _ conditions the post office demand. if the post— conditions the post office demand. if the post office cannot control their— if the post office cannot control their personnel, then at the very least _ their personnel, then at the very least they— their personnel, then at the very least they can do is insist on a sub—postmaster taking legal representation with them to any meeting — representation with them to any meeting with the post office. i'm very angry— meeting with the post office. i'm very angry about this. as per the wishes _ very angry about this. as per the wishes of— very angry about this. as per the wishes of the family, i will be contacting many of the contacts in the media — contacting many of the contacts in the media we have built up over the years _ the media we have built up over the years back— the media we have built up over the years. back to page four, please. we can see _ years. back to page four, please. we can see that— years. back to page four, please. we can see that ms crichton forwards the e-mail— can see that ms crichton forwards the e—mail to roger — can you find out the _ the e—mail to roger — can you find out the facts? we need them this evening — out the facts? we need them this evening a— out the facts? we need them this evening. a couple of minutes later, mark— evening. a couple of minutes later, mark davies says, we must get details — mark davies says, we must get details of— mark davies says, we must get details of this this evening. mr gillibrand says, i am trying to find out the _ gillibrand says, i am trying to find

out the details. and we can see an e-mail_ out the details. and we can see an e-mail that — out the details. and we can see an e—mail that distributes this chain to you _ e—mail that distributes this chain to you from mark davies. yes. mr davies says. _ to you from mark davies. yes. mr davies says, thanks, _ to you from mark davies. i9; mr davies says, thanks, given the potential— davies says, thanks, given the potential media element, please can we line _ potential media element, please can we line up— potential media element, please can we line up a specialist media lawyer in case _ we line up a specialist media lawyer in case we _ we line up a specialist media lawyer in case we need urgent advice this evening? — in case we need urgent advice this evening? so the immediate reaction was not. _ evening? so the immediate reaction was not. is — evening? so the immediate reaction was not, is martin griffiths all right, — was not, is martin griffiths all right, what about his health, was it? :, :, , , :, it? not at this point in this e-mail chain. it? not at this point in this e-mail chain- the — it? not at this point in this e-mail chain. the immediate _ it? not at this point in this e-mail chain. the immediate reaction - it? not at this point in this e-mail| chain. the immediate reaction was not, what chain. the immediate reaction was not. what can _ chain. the immediate reaction was not, what can we, _ chain. the immediate reaction was not, what can we, the _ chain. the immediate reaction was not, what can we, the post - chain. the immediate reaction was not, what can we, the post office, j not, what can we, the post office, do to _ not, what can we, the post office, do to help — not, what can we, the post office, do to help this man's family, was it? :, :, , what do to help this man's family, was it?_ what about| it? not at this point. what about his wife and _ it? not at this point. what about his wife and children, _ it? not at this point. what about his wife and children, his - it? not at this point. what about his wife and children, his elderly| his wife and children, his elderly parents. — his wife and children, his elderly parents, his sister? should we get

somebody— parents, his sister? should we get somebody down to the hospital? that didn't— somebody down to the hospital? that didn't happen, did it? not somebody down to the hospital? that didn't happen, did it?— didn't happen, did it? not getting somebody to _ didn't happen, did it? not getting somebody to the _ didn't happen, did it? not getting somebody to the hospital. - didn't happen, did it? not getting somebody to the hospital. the i didn't happen, did it? not getting. somebody to the hospital. the first thin was, somebody to the hospital. the first thing was. let's _ somebody to the hospital. the first thing was, let's get _ somebody to the hospital. the first thing was, let's get a _ somebody to the hospital. the first thing was, let's get a media - somebody to the hospital. the first| thing was, let's get a media lawyer. that is— thing was, let's get a media lawyer. that is what— thing was, let's get a media lawyer. that is what mark said here. is thing was, let's get a media lawyer. that is what mark said here.- that is what mark said here. is that what it was — that is what mark said here. is that what it was like _ that is what mark said here. is that what it was like in _ that is what mark said here. is that what it was like in this _ what it was like in this organisation at the time, it was all about— organisation at the time, it was all about brand reputation? the organisation at the time, it was all about brand reputation?— about brand reputation? the first i knew of this _ about brand reputation? the first i knew of this is, _ about brand reputation? the first i knew of this is, it _ about brand reputation? the first i knew of this is, it came _ about brand reputation? the first i knew of this is, it came in - knew of this is, it came in separately from martin's sister. there was a separate report of what i originally heard was a traffic accident. i didn't know he had deliberately walked in front of the bus at that time. so there is more correspondence. roger gale was

running the crown network at the time. . :. running the crown network at the time. , . : :, running the crown network at the time. , . : . , i. time. this e-mail chain tells you he walks in front _ time. this e-mail chain tells you he walks in front of— time. this e-mail chain tells you he walks in front of a _ time. this e-mail chain tells you he walks in front of a bus. _ time. this e-mail chain tells you he walks in front of a bus. but - walks in front of a bus. but something _ walks in front of a bus. but something came _ walks in front of a bus. but something came in - walks in front of a bus. but something came in separately. there were two parallel notifications to me. i didn't know martin. this was my first involvement in it and i was concerned that the family, which was why i got involved going forward. you are talking about much later. i'm asking about the immediate reaction — i'm asking about the immediate reaction of the post office. that is the immediate _ reaction of the post office. that is the immediate reaction. _ reaction of the post office. that is the immediate reaction. is- reaction of the post office. that is the immediate reaction. is that i reaction of the post office. that is i the immediate reaction. is that what it was like working _ the immediate reaction. is that what it was like working in _ the immediate reaction. is that what it was like working in the _ the immediate reaction. is that what it was like working in the post - it was like working in the post office — it was like working in the post office at — it was like working in the post office at this time, that the first thought— office at this time, that the first thought was, we need a media lawyer here? _ thought was, we need a media lawyer here? i— thought was, we need a media lawyer here? :, �* ~' �* , , here? i don't think it's the first thou:ht. here? i don't think it's the first thought- it _ here? i don't think it's the first thought. it was _ here? i don't think it's the first thought. it was a _ here? i don't think it's the first thought. it was a consideration here? i don't think it's the first i thought. it was a consideration in everything we did around pr and the comms element. truth?

everything we did around pr and the comms element.— comms element. why was that an im ortant comms element. why was that an important consideration, - comms element. why was that an important consideration, brand i important consideration, brand image? — important consideration, brand image? there is a man that walks in front— image? there is a man that walks in front of— image? there is a man that walks in front of the — image? there is a man that walks in front of the bus here. one of your sub—postmasters. front of the bus here. one of your sub-postmasters._ front of the bus here. one of your sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office, sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office. very _ sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office, very early _ sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office, very early on, _ sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office, very early on, i _ sub-postmasters. from my time at the post office, very early on, i was - post office, very early on, i was conscious that pr was important. mark was the comms director at the time and that was his area, and that was what he said. if time and that was his area, and that was what he said.— was what he said. if we scroll up a bit, ou was what he said. if we scroll up a bit. you reply. _ was what he said. if we scroll up a bit, you reply, this— was what he said. if we scroll up a bit, you reply, this is— was what he said. if we scroll up a bit, you reply, this is not- was what he said. if we scroll up a bit, you reply, this is not related i bit, you reply, this is not related to the _ bit, you reply, this is not related to the crown branch, but is a seven

postmaster— to the crown branch, but is a seven postmaster case. i'm talking to the contract _ postmaster case. i'm talking to the contract adviser. is that glenn chester? _ contract adviser. is that glenn chester? . contract adviser. is that glenn chester?- and _ contract adviser. is that glenn chester? yes. and then you e—mailed chester? yes. and then you e-mailed mr chester chester? i9; and then you e—mailed mr chester within the hour saying, this is— mr chester within the hour saying, this is what — mr chester within the hour saying, this is what we are dealing with. did you — this is what we are dealing with. did you mean —— what did you mean? i think did you mean —— what did you mean? think i left a did you mean —— what did you mean? i think i left a message saying, i need to talk to you urgently. and that was me forwarding the information to him. at this time, he already knew. information to him. at this time, he already knew-— already knew. "this is what we are deahnu already knew. "this is what we are dealing with". _ already knew. "this is what we are dealing with", is _ already knew. "this is what we are dealing with", is that _ already knew. "this is what we are dealing with", is that because - already knew. "this is what we are dealing with", is that because the | dealing with", is that because the hierarchy— dealing with", is that because the hierarchy of the post office, including ms venables and ms crichton, _ including ms venables and ms crichton, were involved? no, including ms venables and ms crichton, were involved? no, iwas sa inc, i crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying. i need _ crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying. i need to — crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying, i need to talk _ crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying, i need to talk to _ crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying, i need to talk to you, - crichton, were involved? no, iwas saying, i need to talk to you, this | saying, i need to talk to you, this is the information i have. i was simply forwarding it to him.

why not say, what is being done for the family— why not say, what is being done for the family here? this why not say, what is being done for the family here?— the family here? this was me “ust forwardin: the family here? this was me “ust forwarding rt �* the family here? this was me “ust forwarding it quickly i the family here? this was me “ust forwarding it quickly because h the family here? this was me just forwarding it quickly because i - forwarding it quickly because i wanted to understand what happened, because i was not cited on this case at all. a year after ayearafteer a year after mr griffiths' death, his daughter wrote to the post office — his daughter wrote to the post office and that was forwarded to you. _ office and that was forwarded to you, wasn't it? | office and that was forwarded to you. wasn't it?— office and that was forwarded to ou, wasn't it? . . . :, you, wasn't it? i had an e-mailfrom lauren, you, wasn't it? i had an e-mailfrom lauren. yes- — you, wasn't it? i had an e-mailfrom lauren. yes- pol— you, wasn't it? i had an e-mailfrom lauren, yes. pol 00306234. -

i don't know whether it'sjust here, but idon't know whether it'sjust here, but every— idon't know whether it'sjust here, but every now— i don't know whether it'sjust here, but every now and _ i don't know whether it'sjust here, but every now and then, _ i don't know whether it'sjust here, but every now and then, we - i don't know whether it'sjust here, but every now and then, we are - i don't know whether it'sjust here, | but every now and then, we are not quite _ but every now and then, we are not quite catching — but every now and then, we are not quite catching what _ but every now and then, we are not quite catching what is _ but every now and then, we are not quite catching what is happening. i quite catching what is happening. could _ quite catching what is happening. could everyone _ quite catching what is happening. could everyone speak— quite catching what is happening. could everyone speak up? - quite catching what is happening. could everyone speak up? sorry. quite catching what is happening. could everyone speak up?- quite catching what is happening. could everyone speak up? sorry i am not could everyone speak up? sorry i am rrot speaking — could everyone speak up? sorry i am not speaking loud _ could everyone speak up? sorry i am not speaking loud enough. _ could everyone speak up? sorry i am not speaking loud enough. for- not speaking loud enough. for whatever reason here, every now and them _ whatever reason here, every now and then, the _ whatever reason here, every now and then, the web— whatever reason here, every now and then, the web tail— whatever reason here, every now and then, the web tail off. _ whatever reason here, every now and then, the web tail off.— then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak— then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak louder. _ then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak louder. is _ then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak louder. is it - then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak louder. is it both i then, the web tail off. sorry, i will speak louder. is it both of| then, the web tail off. sorry, i - will speak louder. is it both of us? it is both sides. _ will speak louder. is it both of us? it is both sides. that _ will speak louder. is it both of us? it is both sides. that might - will speak louder. is it both of us? it is both sides. that might be - will speak louder. is it both of us? it is both sides. that might be to i it is both sides. that might be to do with the _ it is both sides. that might be to do with the amplification. - it is both sides. that might be to do with the amplification. thank| do with the amplification. thank you. _ do with the amplification. thank you. we — do with the amplification. thank you, we have got it on the screen. so we _ you, we have got it on the screen. so we have — you, we have got it on the screen. so we have now got to a year after mr griffiths — so we have now got to a year after mr griffiths passing, and his daughter lauren wrote to you. she says angela, after speaking with my mum yesterday, and e—mailing you to let you _

mum yesterday, and e—mailing you to let you know — mum yesterday, and e—mailing you to let you know how disgusted we are with the _ let you know how disgusted we are with the treatment our family has received — with the treatment our family has received from the post office. as you are _ received from the post office. as you are aware, it's been almost a year— you are aware, it's been almost a year since — you are aware, it's been almost a year since we lost our dad was that we have _ year since we lost our dad was that we have the — year since we lost our dad was that we have the post office solely responsible for what happened. as i'm responsible for what happened. as l'm sure _ responsible for what happened. as i'm sure you can imagine, our family has had— i'm sure you can imagine, our family has had an— i'm sure you can imagine, our family has had an extremely tough year with what i _ has had an extremely tough year with what i consider no support from the post office — what i consider no support from the post office. my dad was the main income _ post office. my dad was the main income earner from our family. without— income earner from our family. without this income, my family has been _ without this income, my family has been struggling to get by financially. my mum cannot work in the shop _ financially. my mum cannot work in the shop of— financially. my mum cannot work in the shop of the post office due to the shop of the post office due to the severe ill feeling she holds for it. the severe ill feeling she holds for it and _ the severe ill feeling she holds for it and - _ the severe ill feeling she holds for it. and — reduction — with the stress — it. and — reduction — with the stress of— it. and — reduction — with the stress of keeping the shop open. considering the financial size of a business — considering the financial size of a business such as the post office limited. — business such as the post office limited. i— business such as the post office limited, i cannot comprehend how our family— limited, i cannot comprehend how our family has— limited, i cannot comprehend how our family has not been supported or compensated this past year. i believe — compensated this past year. i believe we wouldn't have received this kind _ believe we wouldn't have received this kind of treatment from any other— this kind of treatment from any other large corporate organisation.

i understand you're putting what you discussed _ i understand you're putting what you discussed with my mum yesterday in writing _ discussed with my mum yesterday in writing to _ discussed with my mum yesterday in writing to her. it appears from what i writing to her. it appears from what i have _ writing to her. it appears from what i have heard — writing to her. it appears from what i have heard that you are offering £140.000 — i have heard that you are offering £140,000 compensation payment on condition— £140,000 compensation payment on condition that we drop any action or legal— condition that we drop any action or legal recourse with the post office for any _ legal recourse with the post office for any further compensation for its wrongdoing. no amount of financial compensation could replace the fact that the _ compensation could replace the fact that the post office has taken our dad away — that the post office has taken our dad away from our family. but £140,000 compensation for our dad's life is— £140,000 compensation for our dad's life is disgusting. i request that you escalate this matter and forward this e-mail_ you escalate this matter and forward this e—mail to the relevant parties within— this e—mail to the relevant parties within the — this e—mail to the relevant parties within the post office. as stated above. _ within the post office. as stated above, this has dragged on now for almost _ above, this has dragged on now for almost a _ above, this has dragged on now for almost a year. the way in which the post office — almost a year. the way in which the post office has dealt with this has been _ post office has dealt with this has been incompetent and inadequate. we will get _ been incompetent and inadequate. we will get back to you once we have received — will get back to you once we have received your response in writing, but i _ received your response in writing, but i would — received your response in writing, but i would also appreciate a response to this e—mail. " was it

right— response to this e—mail. " was it right that — response to this e—mail. " was it right that you are from £140,000 compensation and condition that the family— compensation and condition that the family drop any legal recourse? we were family drop any legal recourse? 9 were offering the equivalent of a network transformation payment. just ex - lain network transformation payment. just explain what that is? there _ network transformation payment. just explain what that is? there is - network transformation payment. just explain what that is? there is a - network transformation payment. just explain what that is? there is a lot - explain what that is? there is a lot of correspondence _ explain what that is? there is a lot of correspondence before - explain what that is? there is a lot of correspondence before we - explain what that is? there is a lot of correspondence before we get i explain what that is? there is a lot| of correspondence before we get to this e—mail, which gives the background. at this time, the post office was running a network transformation programme, which was compensation payment for postmasters for loss of office who have left their branch which had been transferred to a new post master and it was all part of a refurbishment plan. 50 compensation payment for that loss of office was the

equivalent to 26 months' remuneration. that was a set calculation that was being offered to postmasters throughout the network. ~ , :. . to postmasters throughout the network. 9 , ., to postmasters throughout the network. , . to postmasters throughout the network. 9 , . :, to postmasters throughout the network.9 , . network. why was that loss of office fi . ure network. why was that loss of office figure determined _ network. why was that loss of office figure determined to _ network. why was that loss of office figure determined to be _ network. why was that loss of office figure determined to be the - figure determined to be the appropriate figure to offer mr griffiths' widow and family? prior to martin's _ griffiths' widow and family? prior to martin's death, _ griffiths' widow and family? prior to martin's death, he _ griffiths' widow and family? prior to martin's death, he had - griffiths' widow and family? i f?" to martin's death, he had registered an interest in leaving the network via the network transformation programme. but when he was served three months' notice, he was no longer eligible because he was on notice of his contract. 50 at that point, he wasn't eligible any longer. so i tried to go back to the

situation of processing the network transformation payment for gina griffiths so she could have his payment for loss of office in terms of leaving the network. what lauren is saying here is that this is packaged as a payment for his life, and that was never the intention. i did respond to lauren. i hadn't met with lauren previously, so after martin's death, i met with gina, his wife, and his mother. that martin's death, i met with gina, his wife, and his mother.— wife, and his mother. that was at a local ub. wife, and his mother. that was at a local pub- at _ wife, and his mother. that was at a local pub. at their _ wife, and his mother. that was at a local pub. at their request, - wife, and his mother. that was at a local pub. at their request, yes, . local pub. at their request, yes, because it _ local pub. at their request, yes, because it was _ local pub. at their request, yes, because it was more _ local pub. at their request, yes, because it was more private - local pub. at their request, yes, | because it was more private away from the office, so i at the pub and it was private —— i met them at the pub to give them as much support as i could. i said

pub to give them as much support as i could. isaid i pub to give them as much support as i could. i said i would be happy to meet with anybody else from the family if they wanted to talk to me. lauren asked if i would meet with her, and i met her in london because that was where she was working. i met gina and her mother—in—law in november and it was the same month that i met lauren. and i met gina griffiths and her brother on the 1st of september, which is what triggered this e—mail from of september, which is what triggered this e—mailfrom lauren. but it was your idea, wasn't it? for the but it was your idea, wasn't it? the payment? but it was your idea, wasn't it? if?“ the payment? yeah, iwas but it was your idea, wasn't it? if?“ the payment? yeah, i was concerned because there was pressure on the family because as they said, martin was the main earner was that i didn't know that at the time, but clearly, he was the postmaster. i was trying to facilitate away for

that payment to be made, because that payment to be made, because that was what his intention was prior to his death. but that was what his intention was prior to his death.— that was what his intention was prior to his death. but it was going to be conditional _ prior to his death. but it was going to be conditional on _ prior to his death. but it was going to be conditional on dropping - prior to his death. but it was going to be conditional on dropping any i to be conditional on dropping any claim _ to be conditional on dropping any claim that — to be conditional on dropping any claim that the family had against the post — claim that the family had against the post office, wasn't it? the way that the network _ the post office, wasn't it? the way that the network transformation i that the network transformation payments were structured, it was subject to a nondisclosure agreement and it was a final and full settlement of all claims both ways. but that is for postmasters who are 'ust but that is for postmasters who are just leaving the business as part of their post — just leaving the business as part of their post office closure programme. i their post office closure programme. i know _ their post office closure programme. i know it _ their post office closure programme. i know it was called network transformation, but it involved closing — transformation, but it involved closing thousands of branches. yes, but i was trying _ closing thousands of branches. yes, but i was trying to _ closing thousands of branches. i9; but i was trying to replicate that for martin griffiths and mrs griffiths so that we could facilitate that payment. the intention was never linked to a payment for his loss of life. thea;r

payment for his loss of life. they had a live claim _ payment for his loss of life. they had a live claim with _ payment for his loss of life. they had a live claim with second sight that was— had a live claim with second sight that was being mediated about the alleged _ that was being mediated about the alleged losses.— alleged losses. there was an application — alleged losses. there was an application into _ alleged losses. there was an application into the - alleged losses. there was an application into the scheme. | alleged losses. there was an - application into the scheme. this was auoin application into the scheme. this was going to _ application into the scheme. this was going to be _ application into the scheme. this was going to be conditional on dropping — was going to be conditional on dropping that too, wasn't it? the network dropping that too, wasn't it? ii9 network transformation covered everything, that was the broader peace. everything, that was the broader eace. 9 9. everything, that was the broader eace. 9 . :, , everything, that was the broader eace. : ., :, , ., everything, that was the broader ea9ce. . :, , . . everything, that was the broader ea9ce. . . . . , peace. what does that mean? that is 'ust word peace. what does that mean? that is just word soup- _ peace. what does that mean? that is just word soup. what _ peace. what does that mean? that is just word soup. what i _ peace. what does that mean? that is just word soup. what i asked - peace. what does that mean? that is just word soup. what i asked is, - just word soup. what i asked is, this payment was going to be conditional on the family withdrawing the claim they had made under— withdrawing the claim they had made under the _ withdrawing the claim they had made under the mediation scheme, wasn't it? , , , ., under the mediation scheme, wasn't it? , :, under the mediation scheme, wasn't it? , ,, ., it? yes, because that was the way the network _ it? yes, because that was the way the network transformation - it? yes, because that was the way i the network transformation payment was set out. having met with gina and her brother on the 1st of september to discuss what that would look like, in that conversation they

asked me to consider, is there a way that we could at least facilitate the investigation into the case? out of that conversation, we structured a way forward that would allow gina, we could try and facilitate the transfer of the post office to an incoming postmaster and the discretionary payments, we would put on hold whether she wanted to accept or not, subject to her receiving the scheme report, and that was what we structured to allow her the opportunity to decide whether she wanted to accept this discretionary payment or not, but she could still go ahead with the transfer of the post office. if go ahead with the transfer of the post office-— go ahead with the transfer of the post office. . , , :, . :, post office. it was important to the post office. it was important to the post office. it was important to the post office to _ post office. it was important to the post office to ensure _ post office. it was important to the post office to ensure that - post office. it was important to the post office to ensure that the - post office to ensure that the griffiths — post office to ensure that the griffiths claim that had been lodged

with the _ griffiths claim that had been lodged with the mediation was withdrawn, wasn't _ with the mediation was withdrawn, wasn't it? — with the mediation was withdrawn, wasn't it? :, with the mediation was withdrawn, wasn't it? no. the last thing the post office _ wasn't it? ii9. the last thing the post office wanted was the bad publicity of the griffiths claim being — publicity of the griffiths claim being progressed through the mediation scheme, wasn't it? that was never my _ mediation scheme, wasn't it? “irisgi was never my consideration. my consideration was to support the family. consideration was to support the famil . 9. 9, 9, .. consideration was to support the famil . . :, :, ,, . consideration was to support the famil . . . 99 ::;~,:: , family. can we look at pol 00306172? this is a draft — family. can we look at pol 00306172? this is a draft letter— family. can we look at pol 00306172? this is a draft letter you _ family. can we look at pol 00306172? this is a draft letter you prepared - this is a draft letter you prepared for sending mr griffiths' widow, gina~ _ for sending mr griffiths' widow, gina~ if— for sending mr griffiths' widow, gina~ if we _ for sending mr griffiths' widow, gina. if we scroll down, you say "martin — gina. if we scroll down, you say "martin was— gina. if we scroll down, you say "martin was not eligible for a network— "martin was not eligible for a network transformation levers payment, as he had been served three months' _ payment, as he had been served three months' notice of contract termination. in recognition of his service, — termination. in recognition of his service, the _ termination. in recognition of his

service, the post office would like to offer— service, the post office would like to offer you a discretionary payment in the _ to offer you a discretionary payment in the sum _ to offer you a discretionary payment in the sum of £140,000. that is equivalent— in the sum of £140,000. that is equivalent to the sum offered to sub—postmasters who choose to leave"~ — sub—postmasters who choose to leave"~ i— sub—postmasters who choose to leave". i note you have made an application — leave". i note you have made an application on behalf of your husband to the initial complaint of un mediation scheme. when a discretionary payment is offered, the normal process is for it to be made _ the normal process is for it to be made in — the normal process is for it to be made in full and final settlement of any claims — made in full and final settlement of any claims that a sub—postmaster had against _ any claims that a sub—postmaster had against post office limited. so this has that— against post office limited. so this has that was normal, but the terms on which _ has that was normal, but the terms on which the — has that was normal, but the terms on which the post office could make this offer— on which the post office could make this offer were completely discretionary, weren't they? it was up discretionary, weren't they? it was up to— discretionary, weren't they? it was up to the _ discretionary, weren't they? it was up to the post office to decide the terms _ up to the post office to decide the terms on — up to the post office to decide the terms on which the offer was made. yes. terms on which the offer was made. yes lt— terms on which the offer was made. yes. : :, , terms on which the offer was made. yes. 9 :, , :, terms on which the offer was made. yes. _, , :, . , terms on which the offer was made. yes. , :, . , , yes. it could be on any terms the post office _

yes. it could be on any terms the post office chose _ yes. it could be on any terms the post office chose to _ yes. it could be on any terms the post office chose to put - yes. it could be on any terms the | post office chose to put forwards. yes _ post office chose to put forwards. yes. : :, . , . :, post office chose to put forwards. yes. :, . , . :, yes. and the normal situation you are referring _ yes. and the normal situation you are referring to _ yes. and the normal situation you are referring to was _ yes. and the normal situation you are referring to was a _ yes. and the normal situation you are referring to was a common - yes. and the normal situation you are referring to was a common or| are referring to was a common or garden _ are referring to was a common or garden postmaster who was simply deciding _ garden postmaster who was simply deciding to exit the business as part of— deciding to exit the business as part of the post office's general closure — part of the post office's general closure programme. these are rather different— closure programme. these are rather different circumstances, aren't they? — different circumstances, aren't they? i— different circumstances, aren't the ? 9. different circumstances, aren't the ? . �* , different circumstances, aren't the ? . �*, , . . they? i mean, it's very tragic circumstances. _ they? i mean, it's very tragic circumstances. and - they? i mean, it's very tragic| circumstances. and therefore they? i mean, it's very tragic - circumstances. and therefore very different. yes. _ circumstances. and therefore very different. yes. so _ circumstances. and therefore very different. yes. so therefore, - circumstances. and therefore very different. yes. so therefore, why| different. yes. so therefore, why were ou different. yes. so therefore, why were you saying _ different. i9; so therefore, why were you saying that this was all normal— were you saying that this was all normal that the payment has to be full and _ normal that the payment has to be full and final settlement of any claims, — full and final settlement of any claims, whereas this was a very different— claims, whereas this was a very different situation here? there was an outstanding mediation claim. this was bein: an outstanding mediation claim. in ; was being done in parallel. i was trying to facilitate this payment to gina and the family at that time.

anything to do with the scheme claim would have taken a lot longer. at this point, the application to the scheme had been quite delayed from gina and her advisers at the time. you continue, in this case, "acceptance of the payment will come with a _ "acceptance of the payment will come with a waiver under your application and bring _ with a waiver under your application and bring the application to a close", — and bring the application to a close", the application in the scheme _ close", the application in the scheme. you continue, "your preference _ scheme. you continue, "your preference is to see the outcome of the investigation into your application before making a decision on how— application before making a decision on how to _ application before making a decision on how to proceed, but you wish to move _ on how to proceed, but you wish to move forward with the sale of your branch _ move forward with the sale of your branch to — move forward with the sale of your branch to accommodate both these objectives. the post office agrees to pay— objectives. the post office agrees to pay the — objectives. the post office agrees to pay the discretionary payment subject— to pay the discretionary payment subject to the following conditions. one, subject to the following conditions. one. the _ subject to the following conditions. one, the post office finds a suitable _ one, the post office finds a suitable alternative operator. two, the successful alternative operator enters _ the successful alternative operator enters into a legally binding but

conditional contract. three, you sign _ conditional contract. three, you sign and — conditional contract. three, you sign and return the attached confirmation of transfer document confirming that you wish to transfer the branch— confirming that you wish to transfer the branch to the new operator to proceed _ the branch to the new operator to proceed immediately. you have the option— proceed immediately. you have the option to _ proceed immediately. you have the option to accept a discretionary payment — option to accept a discretionary payment at the point of the transfer completing, oryou payment at the point of the transfer completing, or you can defer the discretionary payment for six months to review— discretionary payment for six months to review the findings of both the post office and second sight's investigations into your application, both of which should be with you _ application, both of which should be with you in — application, both of which should be with you in the next two months and if appropriate, mediate your application with the post office before — application with the post office before deciding whether to accept the discretionary payment". is that what _ the discretionary payment". is that what you _ the discretionary payment". is that what you were referring to? yes. four, what you were referring to? yes. four. you — what you were referring to? yes. four. you sign — what you were referring to? yes. four, you sign the _ what you were referring to? yes. four, you sign the response - what you were referring to? i9; four, you sign the response slip. ii... — four, you sign the response slip. rive. you — four, you sign the response slip. five, you sign and return the attached _ five, you sign and return the attached withdrawal notice". let me turn to _ attached withdrawal notice". let me

turn to what happened next by looking — turn to what happened next by looking at pol 00219796. it is e—mail advice to you from roderick— it is e—mail advice to you from roderick williams in january 2015. saying _ roderick williams in january 2015. saying "find attached the draft settlement". i'm not going to look at that, _ settlement". i'm not going to look at that, in— settlement". i'm not going to look at that, in the interests of time but it— at that, in the interests of time but it sets _ at that, in the interests of time but it sets out the basis on which the fifth — but it sets out the basis on which the fifth claim has been resolved. agreement has been drafted to resolve — agreement has been drafted to resolve all claims that either the deceased — resolve all claims that either the deceased mr griffiths or the applicant mrs griffiths may have against — applicant mrs griffiths may have against the post office. equally, the agreement resolves any claims the agreement resolves any claims the post _ the agreement resolves any claims the post office has against the deceased or his estate, ie you will not be _ deceased or his estate, ie you will not be able — deceased or his estate, ie you will not be able to seek recovery of any outstanding losses in the branch accounts — outstanding losses in the branch accounts or incurred through the

robbery— accounts or incurred through the robbery at— accounts or incurred through the robbery at the branch. let me know if that— robbery at the branch. let me know if that is— robbery at the branch. let me know if that is not— robbery at the branch. let me know if that is not our intention". was that— if that is not our intention". was that still— if that is not our intention". was that still a — if that is not our intention". was that still a live question, the claim — that still a live question, the claim against mr griffiths' estate for the _ claim against mr griffiths' estate for the robbery?— claim against mr griffiths' estate for the robbery? that was still open at this point- _ for the robbery? that was still open at this point. you _ for the robbery? that was still open at this point. you are _ for the robbery? that was still open at this point. you are still— at this point. you are still thinking _ at this point. you are still thinking of _ at this point. you are still thinking of suing - at this point. you are still thinking of suing his - at this point. you are still. thinking of suing his estate? at this point. you are still- thinking of suing his estate? it thinking of suing his estate? hadn't thinking of suing his estate? it hadn't been concluded. so at the point of martin's death, the outstanding debt was still alive on his account and the robbery... studio: you have been watching a second day of testimony are angela van den bogerd, a senior director in the post office. she is being quizzed about the handling of the case of martin griffiths, a postmaster who died after an attempt to take his own life after stepping out in front of a bus. she was being quizzed about how the post office handled that case. let's take you back now to nicky schiller. the

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