preferred better science, better results. i'm rafael romo, the georgia state capitol in atlanta. >> this is cnn 9:00 p.m. here in new york day ten and the trump hush money trial and ending with a false claim from the defendant that he's not being allowed to i'm testified the day began with prosecutors seeking additional contempt judgment against him, but things really heated up during the testimony. stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's former attorney, keith davidson, the prosecution played the phone conversation that michael cohen secretly recorded and cnn exclusively obtained featuring donald trump taking an active role in the karen mcdougal deal

we're going to biden's been talking about that and the impression that it may have had on the jury throughout the program. if you're just joining us here, is that clip need to open up a company for the transfer of water that info regarding our friend david so i'm going to do that right away. i'd actually come up to me and i've spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with so where we are funding yes and it's all the stuff all the stuff because you never know where that company never know what it's going to get it correct. >> so i'm i'm all over that. and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be what well paton yourself, getting old i got no check. >> back with the panel joining us. cnn's laura coates live. laura coates live at 11. also cnn's kara scannell, who was in court again today. what

stood out to you qarrah from courts? >> i mean, i think the audio is a big thing. we're hearing donald trump's voice. the jury is hearing that for the first time and hearing a lot of michael cohen's conversations because that was just one of the audio recordings that was played today. the other one that was played was cohen on the phone with davidson recounting a conversation with donald trump in which he was saying that he was quoting trump is saying, i hate the fact that we did it referring to the stormy daniels deal. so just interesting for the jury to hear this these are real-time recordings of course, trump's lawyers will push back on what it means and what he was referring to, but just really the jury hearing, both cohen referencing trump and donald trump, who's sitting in the room, but hearing him on this secretly recorded phone conversation talking about this specific deal in the cases trump's lawyers have tried to push away from it. >> you'll laura, how do you think these? these recordings played? >> well, they are part of the overall jigsaw puzzle, right? you want to give a little bit for each witness now, one would is not going to give you everything you ever need to prove your case, but you want to get the juror closer and closer to the clear picture. but you also want them thinking of themselves as shady as it

might be for an attorney to record a comes with this client why did you think you had to what took place before that and what took place after that to put in context exactly why you were doing that. that'll give some little food for thought for the jurors to understand. is he doing it to save his skin or is he doing it because he believes that this person is somehow trying to be secretive about even his involvement in it. and he's trying hey, to give some evidence down the road. that's part of the overall picture is becoming increasingly clear that michael cohen is not going to be the most sympathetic figure for these jurors, nor does he have to be david pecker have to be ignored is the idea of the cachin kill and salacious details they have to return the jury to the overarching crime that they are alleging the falsified business records. a lot this is about contextualizing it and the audio is why they don't help necessarily in terms of showing cohen as somebody who should be completely trusted. it doesn't absolve trump of being open, being skeptical about why someone did not trust him. >> when do you think michael

cohen will be brought to the stand? >> even michael cohen doesn't know. i mean, it's essentially basically they tell them to be in the area at a certain time and then but you've seen how the prosecution has been laying out the witnesses. they have someone really interesting like david pecker, come on the first day and then they'll bring in the people who are going to do basically custodial records because as you noted in a an 8:00 hour, trump's, you won't stipulate to anything. they won't say yes, our client did say that at a trump rally and 28 so they have to bring in people, say this, the chain of evidence to bring in someone today to say yes, this audio is real, it is verified. we've been able to authenticate it. and so i think that's one thing when we talk about whether a witnesses believable or not or credible or not. and michael cohen obviously is going to get a very tough cross-examination. we know that the audio tape brings trump closer to this, and it's irrefutable. it is trump's voice on there and it's trump talking about it. can we just talk a little bit about the tape because i am sure the jury to hear that

let's start at the b the tape they are going to hear at multiple, multiple times. >> and i'm sure parsing every word. >> but what did donald trump's say there when he talks about the money he says, is the money going to be in cash? >> is that something that jury is going to think? wow, what a responsible businessman know, this. i mean, i think the jury is going to think why didn't you say? get out of my office? i mean trump is involved in this. i whole as like a mob tape, i'm and michael cohen certainly has adopt or i guess used to adopt that persona or it seemed like a lot of people in the trump organization adopted that persona, but saying like our friend david, all yeah, i would here this speaking in code, i mean, jeffrey, you and i were having it probably at the exact same thoughts at the exact same moment because it actually brings me back to the fani willis proceedings in georgia where trump's lawyers tried to make a whole thing about how

she paid for things in cash. >> and here's trump saying $130,000 he was suggesting that they pay are faring hundred grand in cash. >> you have a one who is sitting elected district attorney. >> yeah. but one is a businessman and arthur handles casual jury is sitting there and they're just going to be like who does that, who want to pay for? we have at least we have two lawyers on the panel. we have a financial person on jury on. we have a finance person. >> it may not be in the world of business so then what business is it that you know about where 100,000, $30,000 in cash okay. he's routine unless you're doing business in some part of the world where my brand house. closings, whether different kinds. there are different kinds of into it is not so it's not organized crime when we're talking about getting somebody killed? yes.

michael cohen has embraced this on the fixture and the way he talked and the way he handled themselves but if you listen to that tape, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you know what proves his guilty? michael cohen. what does trump eight. okay. $130,000. right. but michael cohen, whose voice from people who i spoke to in the courtroom they said, what came out of the tape today wasn't trump's voice where you barely hear it was michael cohen's booming voice. in that courtroom and i think elie said earlier they're dirty up. michael cohen with their own witnesses to china like lay the groundwork, get ready, ladies and gentlemen, because you're going to hear from a sleazy guy. but anderson, i've been involved with a lot of trials. i've never had a prosecutors calling their own witnesses to dirty up their main witness. that is just not normal, by taking their time to take out this thing. first of all, it's not as if this is a figure who has had his voice altered throughout the course of the last several years. we don't know is identity. michael cohen is a very known figures so much

though it was a part of the conversation in terms of even jury selection, anticipating who they may have known have clear where that were the case so they are aware of who it is, but to be honest, it's not as if most crimes are witnessed by a bus full of nuns, there there witness by people who sometimes are complicit with the i agree. >> i agree with i mean, everyone a happy by appreciate that you do. >> but let me i'll say this. we're thinking about what i think that they are trying to do i think they're trying to make this jury say and this is how things are done. this how the sausage is made. this is a shakedown of course, a very, very wealthy man who says he's very, very wealthy, they get hit up all the time about people alleging that they've got his story and boy, do i have a story to tell you? they're not so much, i think painting this on the hopes it people suddenly have an epiphany about their opinion about a well-known figure, maybe like michael cohen, as much as thinking, well, hold on, this is, this is kinda how things are done. i guess if you're rich, someone's got a target on your back financially, that's one of the ways we're going to try to do

so combine that with the idea of why you're hearing michael cohen's voice, they want to suggest that he is a the fant who only wanted to please. there was no intimation, there was no suggestion. he took it upon himself, but that's why the prosecution has got to make their case. it was never going to be a cake walk, but they've got approved. this is not innuendo. they're going to try to present the attaboy that comes after, not is it no, no, no, no, no, no, no. and then what happened? later? remember we heard maybe pecker. thank you from trump. >> thank you for your help with the situations. he got him to the white house. he even sits in a room with microphones racially i was getting extorted stormy daniels says, we're going to lose leverage if the if he loses if he loses the presidency, we need to get my money. >> i want my mother i know. >> corrects it on cross-examined on redirect by the prosecutors it davidson, miss testified to that based on the way that the cross-examination went on, redirect, he said that he

wasn't quoting stormy daniel's. he was quoting her publicist boyfriend, who was just about to give an interview saying that he's the one that was something that probably had some impact on the jury. they were initially they initially heard this for the first time as though it was stormy day and you'll saying that and then a regional wasn't stormy daniels who said that she would lose leverage. it was the wavefront also. he published a blog or something of some kind he, he had written well, they were trying to trump's team is trying to suggest that he wrote the blog post in 2011 on the dirty.com blog, that initial chile surface. >> this daniel's trump liaison and then they never quite got it, confirmed that he actually did work there. the record, if you have a publicist was boyfriend for something called the dirty.com? >> probably not a good idea the extortion theory here tonight the one thing that was clear as all this was being negotiated is that stormy daniels had other options. >> other people were interested in this story and they were trying to keep her from telling

it publicly and i believe she told you this in her interview that she just she didn't want it to be out there. she knew what people would say the attacks on her, the names what would happen, and to other people could have bought the story. she could have sold it to someone else and you made that much. >> if we could just talk about michael cohen, i know you want to make michael cohen out to be the worst person ever any federal jury that convicted him talk to the judge that sentence pleaded guilty. >> what he's exactly exactly. well, his. >> buddies arrows bill hearable terrible, and who was it who hired michael cohen year after years to work for him? >> i have represented guys who worked assistant to the president of american express the assistant to the president of american express. american spreads seems to be a pretty prestigious thing. there's the president know what they direct underlings are doing in that particular case? absolutely. michael cohen has. donald trump has no idea what my nose is. a tape is going to come out trump says, you handle it, you just deal with this because that's

what you do when you're running for president, when you're a billionaire, when you are the president, you delegate and that's the defense here. your eye, your hypothesis is that michael cohen was excellent most of the time but suddenly so what you're saying no, you're saying trump didn't know that he was corrupt, that we just played the tape. >> we're trump really involved he and also david pecker has already testified and a photo was shown in court of him walking you to pass the rose garden. >> but we know the conversation was trump's saying, how's our girl karen, or house? teren debts fine. >> that's not illegal. once you illegals what went in the book, that's the crime. it's your session. you're saying trump is seemingly unaware of i don't think that early at this vitally, this photo was taken according to david pecker, trump is asking him with all the world's problems that he must be shoulders and the white house is placed. that's david pecker, nothing illegal. >> i'm not saying it's

illegal. i'm just saying he's he's in the white house and he's concerned about karen mcdougal and ishee going to remain my point is is i don't think that all right there i think anderson cooper, i think they're gonna have a very hard time proving that donald trump said in the logbook in our office, which we're not presenting to anyone, put it down this way, so it goes that way. he just says michael i spoke to weisselberg, who's also a jarryd jail, right? >> if don't try to the principle is saying, oh, let's pay in cash or less, paying cash, want the world to note, right? so he probably hopefully, you know what, he very well might like if he's so concerned about it being paid in cash maybe you would want to know where to run down the other things that a just mentioned that that came into evidence today was donald trump's sort of indicating he didn't really want to pay this and he was sort of upset about it. i read that to be one of those pieces of evidence that could go either way, either to this idea that he just doesn't like to hand out his money to anyone in general or that he

was upset about paying money when he felt under pressure to do so. i mean, to me that seems to also be something that could that could actually work in his favor was fascinating to it, was listening to everyone. we are unpacking and parsing each word monday morning, quarterbacking these jurors hear it in real time. when you clarified a point of cross examination, you have to wonder the jurors actually picking up on those nuances is great. >> what are they remembering? >> in these moments? are they thinking to themselves? does the rose garden picture resonate in the same way? did stormy daniel's boyfriend or where it was saying it and remember, they're not just using what they know here. i'd much as we tell jurors to do so we'd heard that video or audio tape years ago, michael cohen and people who may remember having heard that audio tape and they remember some of the details of this case. and so i have to wonder what good is gonna happen in deliberation rooms. are they as focused and looking at the nuance or is it to the advanced the defense to keep them from stipulates, they have every mundane detail you remember this executive, you

remember the time may to get fizz document min in that document and because the more they have to add that kitchen sink, that's a form of delay. this can also be why the prosecution's tactic of painting a very broad picture of what kind of world was donald trump and what kind of person was donald trump? >> because if you're a juror, you're probably sitting there thinking who does that? >> right? like, every time something like that comes up there, just thinking, wait a second. who does that that is probably at the end of the day. what is going to drive their big picture understanding of what kind of person is donald trump, what kind of business was he engaged in? what would he really have? >> parted ways with this kind of money without knowing what it was for. arthur. arthur has over $30,000 right now we're going to take a break. we'll see who's left after the cash has been handed out. much more

head, including some key moments from the trial trend script that we've just gotten, including the defense's effort to take attention away from stormy daniels and down trump's apparent desire to buy or her, by her silence. and put the scrutiny and set on michael cohen davidson, who made the deal happen. it will a heart attack. do they have life insurance no. but we have life insurance john i'm trying to find something we can afford fortunately, it only a few minutes. >> select boat found john a $500,000 policy for only $29 a month and his wife and a $500,000 policy for only $21 a month go to select quote.com now and get the insurance your family meets at a price you can afford. select quote, we shop you save no application fee. >> if you apply by may 31st at university of maryland global campus the university, that's transformed adult lives for 75 years. you're not waiting to

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i'm arlette saenz at the white house, and this cnn more new details we've just gotten from the trial transcript in cross-examination today, the defense tried to address that keith davidson was an extortionist for selling the silence his client, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and they tried to paint trump fixer, michael cohen, as driven by his own ambition as we've been talking about, not his boss's orders more now on what the trial transcript reveals about both john berman's back with that. >> so michael cohen had many alleged complaints in his conversations with keith davidson, including about getting compensated? >> yes. so keith davidson recounts on the stand a conversation that he says he had with michael cohen. this was during the transition davidson's in a department store on december i guess, of 2020. and he says, quote, he said something to the effect of jesus christ. can you effing believe i'm not going to

washington after everything i've done for that f-in guy i can't believe i'm not going to washington. i've saved that guys asieh so many times. you don't even know. prosecutor says and did in a david's as is and then and then question is, i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you. davidson says and then he made reference to he said, you know, i never even got paid that f-in guy is not even paying me back the 130,000 and then they made clear the hundred $30,000 that they're talking about, what did you mean by that last part? i never got paid repaid the uh, hundred and $30,000 from the deal with stormy daniel's. so again, where you have there is complaining about the money, but also complaining about not going to washington, not getting appointed to a job somewhere in the trump administration. >> i remember that though, because michael cohen was devastated. and what what keith davidson testified to his correct. that he thought he would be attorney general or chief of staff or some problem? i'm going to roll in the michael cohen thought he would be okay but let's not forget

that period. know what entirely possible trump won the election. i mean, the figures that we're going in and out of trump tower that people that he wanted to see where michael cohen, someone who wanted to always elevate himself in trump's eyes, he had a lunch with mark cuban and he had them said paparazzi there. so trump would see him having lunch with mark cuban. and so he was always someone who thought that trump would be loyal back to him. and i think that's really also the tail of what we're seeing here, which is we only know this because michael cohen said a lot of this publicly, even though people discredit him. i understand that. but michael cohen came forward and flipped on trump, even though trump was once confident, it's something it's a known quantity now, the breakdown in the relationship, but for people who knew them, i mean, michael cohen is someone who is completely loyal to donald trump and did not i get that loyalty back and retard, of course, he must have known that that was a possibility because he taped that call. >> yeah. i mean, he taped the call for a reason probably to substantiate that the agreement has been made, but also to ensure that it was on the

record that he had put this money down for donald trump so the idea yeah, that michael cohen, from the beginning kind of questioned whether trump would be good for his his sayyed of the deal, the money and and all of it. i think was always there. he always suspected that trump would tell his wife about the so i mean, he's calling keith davidson. i'm not sure many other people knew michael cohen actually had done this at that time. rudy giuliani, obviously later knew because he said it on fox news. but microloans wife didn't even know that this had occurred, and that works two ways. >> remember, we heard the testimony from the banker to suggest that he had a certain amount of money in the bank and then he wanted to match that because his wife buckle cohen's wife, looked at all the finances and he was trying to be very secret it is about all these different aspects of it. >> now, if you're the defense, how are you going to use that you're going to say this man has lied to every branch of government and his wife. but you want it to believe him right now. >> but if you are the prosecution, think about your working backwards, you're thinking about your closing argument, how to sum out of all the things that have happened

here and one thing you want to sum up is the use of the word that berman just read repaid, not i thought if i did this, he might do this. >> he hasn't even repaid me and you combine the word repaid with the audio tape has been recorded, is it just that there has been some meeting of the minds between donald trump and michael cohen about an event that would take place. and then he did not make good on his promise. i remember when is he saying this? can you believe i'm not going to go to the white house with him. he's won an election. >> but the damage has been, at least not done, but it has been contained in you add it all know that the crime is color is not the crime. in other words, they can prove all day long he paid $130,000 in cash and checked and credit card. that's not the crime. and anderson. okay. we had some fun with the cash part, but think about it. if you're paying for a confidentiality agreement that's the legal term and it's hush money is media but the legal terms of

confidentiality agreement typically you don't want to be what a big track record of what here's a check for $130,000 to stormy daniels floating around the universe like really wanted $30,000 that's why attorneys not have hadn't talking in front of the courthouse at one point in time. >> remember this last week donald trump comes out and tries to try to create and fighting the conversation suggests all i've done right all the time is i wrote on a memo line for legal services. i paid an attorney for legal services by weight that could possibly come back to haunt him. why? because what i've just said, if the agreement but was made and now the mission accomplished is that i have won the election and the purpose of having to repay you is now about what i've written in the business records. i no longer have the same level of exposure, so they have to crack that all together. you're right in isolation in a vacuum. you cannot just sort of pick and choose and say aha, this one sentence but the cumulative aspect for this prosecution point by point is what they're

going towards for that falsified business records. and again, they're trying to hide an underlying crime. >> and remember, this is what the prosecution is going to hope to do, is say this is mostly a documents case is that the checks exist. the checks to stormy daniels exist, and the checks to comp into to pay michael cohen back exist. the business records exist where the payments are characterized as as legal fees the only issue in the case, ultimately, as you keep pointing out is donald did donald trump no that these false indications are on the business records and the second part, and they're being used to commit another crime. >> in other words, they catch it, can't just be that it's on the books. that's statute limitations doubt. that's a misdemeanor. that's gone. it's gotta be. yes. >> trump knew it was on the books and then knew it was in furtherance of another crime. it's pieces that but that's the easy part because that

other crime is campaign everybody ago, which one state of federal? we have it could be both. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter matter that the record, the business records i mean, isn't the defense arguing these are personal records? these are not business records submitted to the irs. these are internal trump coming. >> it's still a crime. it still doesn't have to be done and a half to be submitted to be like an irs says, point, he's not charged with filing a false ensured. that is another crime. he is not charged with that. it's falsifying business records, which as you correctly pointing out, it's an internal document? not that he gave it to the federal election committee or the irs or anyone else here are honey hundreds of crimes that he's not charged with. but he actually is charged with the one that is a crime. >> but anderson making a valid point. in other words, it's not that he craves someone filled this out and submit it and said this is the truth. it was in a

desk in someone's desk, in a ledger in an office. >> but the state of new york has decided that it is a crime it's to have a false, just to be clear, it's a misdemeanor that at this point is barred by the statute limitations, and it only comes to life if they can prove that it was in furtherance of another crime and led always say about the tape, about michael cohen, one of the first questions i'm one of the first areas on cross-examination is how many other times have you recorded donald trump? >> because i'll bet the hundred and 30,000 i got in my pocket. that that's not the only time he recorded a really good question about how many other times he's he's done this to a degree because to me if you're the prosecution, what you want what you want to indicate is that michael cohen knew that what he was doing, first of all, was shady. he wanted it on tape that he was doing it for trump with trump's knowledge. and the election looms large over that if they can substantially she aid that. the reason he was worried about getting this on

tape, maybe this will come out when microcode takes the stand, is because the stakes here, what i recorded all my conversation and so canada, he says i recorded all my i'm just a valid question. i mean the journey client pointing but maybe but i think valid question that i think michael cohen will have to heal, have to explain why in that particular moment it was important to tape it and it seems to me the presidential election is not irrelevant in that conversation i say, one other thing is that, is it you're talking about this being a documents case? >> it may be it may be very dry, but there are a lot of moments when the prosecution is getting stuff in there. that's not dry at all. and in the control and just see, you know, this is what graphic number three is for the 9:00 hour here it has to do with the relationship that stormy daniels had with donald trump for allegedly right. and they get this into evidence. tier today, steinglass the prosecutor, asieh. so let me direct you to two parts. in particular, this is of a statement that stormy daniel's

and keith davidson crafted the first two sentences when it states that she is daniels was contacted by certain news outlets alleging she had a sexual and/or romantic affair with donald trump many, many years ago and then it states that that's absolutely false how was that technically correct? the prosecutor asks davidson responds, well, i think you have to hone in on the definition of romantic sexual, and affair. the prosecutor says, okay. can you explain that davidson says, well, i don't think that anyone had ever alleged that any interaction between she and mr. trump was romantic, and then steinglass says, okay, how about sexual and the davidson responds, well, that would be a sexual or romantic. yes, this may be a documents case, but there has to be a reason the prosecution is doing everything they can to show there is some pretty simi behavior. >> there was also something in the transcripts understand about keith davidson and his surprise on election night that

donald trump had one, what did he say that night? >> there's a text message exchange between keith davidson and dylan howard, who of course work for david pecker. and just to really quickly through this, this is the first exchange in a text. davidson says, yes, what did you say? davidson says, what have we done steinglass, the prosecutor says, what did you mean by that, mr. davidson? davidson says, well, that was sort of a gallows humor and it was on election night as a result, we're coming in and there was a sort of surprise amongst the broadcasted and others that donald trump was leading in the polls. and there was a growing sense that folks were about to be ready to call the election. the prosecutor says, and you refer to it as gallows humor. can you explain that a little more? what did you mean? why did you say what have we done davidson, he says, i think there was an understanding this is a text between dylan howard and i, and there was an understanding that our efforts may have in some way, i should strike that. that our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of donald trump an important well, i mean part of

the charges in this case is that all of these transactions, all of this money was ultimately to benefit donald trump's campaign and what they are saying is, my god, it worked and that's part of the case. >> some bourbon things very much for the transcripts coming up. the former president uses his free weekday this week to campaign in wisconsin and revive an old threat how that could tie into this trial has formed white house committee occasions director do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need now you can sell your policy even a term policy for an immediate cash payments call coventry direct to learn more. >> we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement but we quickly realized we needed a way to supplement our income. >> our friends sold their policy to help pay them legal bills. and that got me thinking it'd be selling our policy could help with our retirement. >> i'm skeptical. so i did some research and called

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walkie. he also gave an interview to the local newspaper, the journal sentinel, and for the third presidential campaign in a row, he began laying groundwork for not accepting the results of this november's election he said this of the upcoming wisconsin vote, quote, if everything's honest, i'll gladly accept the results. if it's not, you have the fight, you have to fight the right for the right of the country, which raises the question, of course, what happens if this trial doesn't turn out in his favor? joining our panel, former communications director and the trump white house. so less far, griffin i don't think it surprises you that he would say this a third time about this upcoming election, but remarkable to see him just boldly saying that well, and what's also remarkable is this trial, which is incredibly important is happening. but in some ways it kinda superseded this incredible time interview that donald trump gave in his own words, which is laying out verbatim what aids like myself have warned for the last four years that a second term would be mass deportations, detention camps for undocumented migrants in the country, weaponizing the department of justice going

after political adversaries, and just really paying this picture of a fundamentally un-american can second term, he's also openly talking about contesting election results before even having them. i worry that in this moment that we're in these very scary things aren't getting quite the attention that they can. we're living in such a fast-paced media environment. i don't necessarily see the biden campaign doing enough to really raise the stakes here and say this is how dangerous this moment is it's yes, he will absolutely contest the results of the election. did it once before. >> so he's raised the bar so high for based on everything he's always said that at a certain point, it just becomes noise. i go yeah, of course he would say this and people don't even pay attention. >> people do tune it out. yeah. >> i'll never forget when trump was asked it in the briefing room that de and he equivocated and wouldn't say whether or not he would accept the results of the election. it was the middle of covid that's what everyone is primary really asking questions about. and that was the first time he had said it in such a public forum. i know you'd set it in 2016 and he had referenced it before. but this is donald

trump. this is what he does. he did this in the town hall a year ago. he said, i'll accept the results of the next election if it's an honest election, the person who decides that in terms might is donald trump just point out that what he he said in that interview is almost word for word, what he said on the ellipse on january 6th, you have to fight and you know about an election result. >> you don't like and they fought at the capitol on january 6. he's saying the same thing. >> yeah. and expecting presumably the same result i didn't want to also the court what he's saying in court, right. >> if he will, his acceptance is always contingent on a result being favorable. right? it's only going to be a fair system where a fair trial or a fair jury, if it results in what he believed to be, it should be an acquittal. >> let's play what he said after courts well, i'm not allowed to test if i am under a gag i guess can testify now we're gonna be appealing the games i'm not allowed to

testify because this judge it's totally conflicted. >> as me under a unconstitutional gag order. nobody has ever had that before obviously, that is false. >> todd blanche is reaction is some that was sort of like a not like oh, and then, uh, yes breaks for him for todd because i've been in those positions where you have a client larger than life, but not but not in this league. former president all right. i've just said not in that league. >> yeah. but okay. but mr. weinstein had a lot to say, mr. herschel, that the last thing. rudy giuliani has allowed to say alan dershowitz says lots of anthony weiner is let say, roger al-zeitoun a lot to say. so yeah, i've had clients by the way, i've had a lot of all those suffering the world. i think your heart could break for some others say it was taught in that position to have made his choices yes. i agree with you. but when you have a guy like that saying something that's ridiculous on two levels, there's never been a gag order like that before. that's ridiculous. that's not true and i can testify because

the gag order that's elementary knowledge. i mean, my high-school son knows that you are allowed to testify. that's not true. so you sit there like fish mac kind of as you're okay, mr. president. but i mean, those words to come out of his mouth are ridiculous. >> i think the other thing just to merge the two story lines here trump fundamentally is always trying to break down the institutions any system, any procedure, any process that is unfavorable to him as fundamentally unfair in his view. >> that goes for elections, that goes for this court in manhattan, that goes for the court in georgia. it goes for the court in florida where he's being tried in the documents case so knowing that when it comes to the elections which is really the whole ball game what does the country do when he's basically saying what he's, what, what his game plan is going forward. and when you asked republicans, as i'm sure, all of us will over the next six months what are you going to do different this time

around compared to the last time around when he laid the predicate for january 6, if the answer is we're gonna do the same thing we did last time, which is basically say that this is donald trump's rhetoric and it doesn't matter that i think tells us everything we need to know about what's going to happen, going forward. it has not seemed to me like establishment republicans or whoever else in the republican party who are the ones who ultimately will have to make their choices here. their behavior is not really changing. and so it suggests that donald trump is just going kinda play the same playbook. and it might have the same result except that this time around, people are more ready for it. >> well, i mean, caitlin spoke to senator jd vance last night, and also i want to play this for you because she she asked him if trump's treatment of mike pence on january 6, gave him any pauses. this is what he said okay, let i'm extremely skeptical that mike pence's life was ever in danger. i think politics and politics people like to really exaggerate things from time to

time running the party senator, a lot of folks that democratic party kaitlan act as if january the 6th was the scariest moment of their lives. i think look january 6 was a bad day. it was a riot, but the idea that donald trump and anyone's lives when he told them to protest peacefully. it's just absurd i, mean obviously writers were chanting hang mike pence. it's just stunning. i mean, yes, riders channing hang mike pence, gallows being erected on the south lawn i know mike pence's security detail. i've traveled the world with them. they do not mess around. i've spoken to them after january 6. they feared for his life and mike pence chose not to stay even though he was at risk. they relocated him is, just a rewriting of history, j.d. vance knows that's not true. and by the way, is somebody who's been on the receiving end of death threats from maga world, it should not be stunning to anyone that people would threaten somebody for going against donald. >> also, there's videos of other republican senators who were there that day running from the rioters as they were breaking in. and i thought what's so interesting, and

this is important for people who don't know is a j.d. vance is on donald trump's vp shortlist. he is someone who could be in the role that mike pence was on that day? he's made clear he would not do what mike pence did dan in the way of sending the fake slates of electors to congress? he believes congress should fight that out, essentially define the constitution. and i just think it speaks to the moment of what he's in and the question was, does it give you any pause? how trump is treated? mike pence, a lifelong conservative, and didn't even call mike pence that day when he was up there and my pence's said that donald trump put his life in danger, also his family who was with him. so he's made that clear, but it does speak to abby's point about who is going to be around donald trump if he is if he is going to be potentially put back in the white house it could be people who say they won't say years at this point this is the perspective, by the way, as you're talking about it, this supreme court right now, that is deliberating as to whether he would have immunity, absolute immunity. >> so we've talked about who would surround a future

president or somebody who might return to the oval office. if it president has absolute immunity, it doesn't matter who is to his left, more whose to his right? it or anyone, because no one above them. that's the whole point the law would even be below him and that's part of what the consideration is going forward. remember, there are asking for conditional the way he talks about conditional, asking for absolute immunity and all that is being contemplated. did nine justices have to consider it stay with us coming up, who will testify next? still a lot of big names to hear from, including someone once considered to be one of the former president's most trusted aides in the white house. let's add how far would you go to set the ambiance of your space try the air wick way with airway essential missed, infused with natural listen oil to fill your low bit with immersive fragrance for up to 45 days now that's a breath of fresh air wick. i'll got good news is a murder.

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sand tomorrow, who starts off tomorrow? >> do we know they haven't said for sure they don't announce this obviously publicly, but what they've been doing is folding in the super interesting juicy witnesses. would those who bring the records, i think it could be more of the records people potentially fully, but i do think after that, there is an open question of who fits next in this narrative hope hicks has been widely speculated about choice. we don't know that it is going to be her, but in that audio tape that they played in the courtroom today, it does. i believe you can hear her voice in the background. she was obviously around for those key conversations with michael cohen, so she could be a natural fit potential was, how are hope hicks and kellyanne conway seen in the trump world today so two very different figures on hope i started with their boat since i didn't the white house, she had one focus. >> she's not ideological. she's not particularly partisan. her role in the white house was to protect donald trump at all costs. she sees herself as a trump loyalist. first and foremost, i'm a little surprised that there's been some kind of media

scuttle, but that perhaps she's really going to turn on him and this is going to be a big moment where she reveals what he did wrong. i think she's going to tell the truth as instructed by her attorneys, but i think she will stay very well within the lines of anything she what she won't want to say anything that's incriminating to the former president and kellyanne conway. i mean, she's still clings to the inner circle. she's from a certain perspective advising the campaign right now. i don't know that either are a slam dunk for the prosecution in any sense. >> yeah. i mean, in many ways, think about why you'd want remember, they cannot play the access hollywood tape they are not allowed to its two prejudicial according to the judge, they can reference the fallout from the access hollywood tape for framing purposes of the prosecution, you want to make the connection that the reason why he was motivated to try to falsify a business record or even pay this person differently than he had saved karen mcdougal was because they were concerned about the impact to the campaign from the fallout of the access hollywood tape. so if you've got emails, if you've got discussions, if you've got communications with hope as the connecting dot

between the campaign and the fallout of access hollywood to where we are now. that's when they're most useful. >> and she need not frankly, even be somebody to turn on trump or to me, or to turn again sam, she asked to be somebody to say, well, look, it was contemplated the fallout was major. >> we thought there was a chance that if there was one more straw that fell on perhaps the evangelical vote are back or the women voters back, or just the electoral voters in general that could have been the end of the campaign. that's it's the concern you have to convey i think one of the most interesting questions about the prosecution is this point is do they call karen mcdougal and even do they call stormy daniels? that's because that's a great point. >> do you think they need to as a technical legal matter, i don't i don't think so. i mean, the checks have been interested the purpose behind the checks have been introduced, and so they don't have to prove that the sex took place. that's not part of the

case. >> and they may think that the prosecutors may think this is too much of a spectacle, too much of a sideshow and so i don't know. >> i mean, i think stormy daniel's is likely because it is her transaction that is really in the heart of this case. but karen mcdougal, it's it's essentially background information the prosecution has has already put forward all about the transaction. i don't know if they need her. so before i get to that point, when you talk about tomorrow, it's all about strategy, right? and when your defense attorney you're exhausted, you literally exhausted and if you put on the prosecution puts on a key witness tomorrow on friday, the fence has saturday, sunday to see okay. this is the direct they're going to have daily copy and they could really prepare very well for the cross-examination on monday. so when i was a prosecutor, i tried to put on nonsensical went no big deal. witnesses. >> but on a friday on a friday.

>> so that i don't give the advantage of the defense attorney to have that weekend prep what jeffrey is saying though, is, i've been thinking about that do they really need stormy daniels? but if you give the defense the opportunity to go up there and say, i am as defense attorney, i am telling you my client is always said he didn't have sex with stormy daniels, and this was a shakedown. these were absolutely false allegations and this is a just pay this money just to even if it was for the presidential election it changes. now he really is a victim of extortion. so i think they're going to have to bring her in and she's going to say, yes, we had sex where when as a defense attorney, you would and you are representing trump, you would not want stormy daniels and karen mcdougal to testify correct? >> yeah. what you don't have to remember. >> one of the objections that came during the opening, which we all know, opening statement ejections are pretty rare. you want to have everyone have their flow. one thought comment that instantly got sustained by

the judge was was alluding that stormy was an extortionist. that to me the judge is going to have on a very tight leash. number one. number two, it really does doesn't matter if they actually were engaged in a sexual affair, anything anymore than it matters whether at that time and he's got to a billy bush, he really did grab him by the pi all that matters is the fallout and the idea of whether it would impact how he was perceived enough to motivate him to make a payment and falsified i may ask you just in terms of the impression to the jury, if they hear that donald trump has denied even knowing keratin going to go or denied. and you already have testimony from david pecker saying he would ask about karen mcdougal repeatedly calling her our girl and karen saying she's a nice girl does it help to actually have them on the stand to tell their sayyed the story and the jury then if they believe those two, then they are less likely to believe donald trump. >> well, yeah, he's lying about that. i mean, yes. but it also

as a strategic reason, even though i know conceptually, i don't need to have this to check off the boxes to maybe movement make my elements i've got a jury who is leaning into the most. i want them in the palm of my hand to be leaning into know on these moments what you're hearing is so important. number one, number two, it's going to look bad for the prosecution. you mean there's all this talk about michael comments or manuals. i don't call them a juror is going to think themselves will hold on, why or why are we not hearing from them? and you have to later that same level that's risk for the prosecution and defense attorney. my summation, we're all used to be just underscore just the differences between karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. and i think coming to play here, karen mcdougal's relationship with trump is much more of a relationship, right? stormy daniel's, there's debate about whether we do is since she was in love with me, yeah. exactly. so i think that that that also is going to come into play too, in terms of trump's credibility and denying these affairs. >> thank everybody. the news continues, so deserve special primetime, cnn trial coverage

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