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mattresses made affordable. i'm melanie zanona in washington and this cnn it is just fast, 9:00 p.m. here in new york, dramatic de 11 of the trump hush money trial. now in the books, former trump adviser communications director, one time close confidant, hope hicks, were united with the foreign president by a prosecution subpoena, or testimony establishing his awareness after he became president of how much he politically benefited by paying for stormy daniel silence before the 2016 election, whether her tears, which followed were related to her answer on that or just came from the accumulated tension of

being on the stand, the emotion of the moment is impossible. say whether the day was it significant, dramatic end to week three of this historic trial. that is hard to deny. joining the panel for this, our cnn senior legal analyst, elie honig. elie, we haven't heard from you what stood out to you today. >> well, here we are at roughly what iss to be about the mid point of this trial. we're about halfway through. i think if on the prosecutor and i like to think about things this way, i'm very satisfied with certain elements my case, but i'm also very worried about other elements. here's what i think they have strong clearly donald trump knew about these hush money payments. i don't think there's any real question. clearly, he wanted the money to be paid and it's quite clear to me and hope hicks, i think solidified this today that it was for a political reason. yeah, there was a family concern too, but there also was a substantial political reason that's the good news. the problem is there's nothing so far in this record as it stands now in donald trump to the accounting behind the fight the financing of those payments. and that's the crime. and it's starting to look increasingly like the only actual link they're going to have showing that yes, donald

trump knew the way we structured these reimbursements with all the checks to try to make it look like legal fees. it looks like the only link is going to be michael cohen and boy, i've never seen a witness take on more damage before he stepped in the stand, then michael cohen has taken on every single witness, has said he's a horrible person and he's a liar. i don't think the other piece of evidence is the actual checks that trump sayyed. >> the checks help, but they don't answer all the questions. i mean, there's so many responses to that. does he know exactly what he's paying for? why is michael cohen extracting triple the amount that he paid, paid $130,000. he gets paid back over $400,000. what did michael cohen tell them who's going to be able to testify that i think the checks are helpful to the prosecution, but they don't get them to the finish line. >> so let me just explain how a confidentiality agreement works in the real-world, not when someone was running for president, but let's talk about a very real scenario. my phone rings, it's some dude who cheated on his wife and now the woman says, i want money, or i'm telling you wife we

say, you go get a lawyer. she gets a lot. so there's lawyer the lawyer were talking to each other. there's a written i have them. they like forms that it's a confidence sheds gag order basically and we're going to give you this amount of money over this amount of time and you can't say anything. and if you do this treble damages, so if we give you 1 million and you squeal now you got to give us 3 million the husband doesn't write the check to her. the husband right. to check to my law firm. my law firm puts it in the escrow account and sometimes my legal fee is built in that so hypothetically, if it's 100 grand and my legal fee is 10,000, he writes unchecked $110,000 the law visits like dollar opportunity in cabins. it goes in my answer it's cruel account 10,000 goes into my operating account and then i write out the check from they aidala petunia and cabins il or accounts to her lawyer. he puts it in his escrow account and then he pays her. that's all ethical, legal. and there's nothing wrong with it. i think what the prosecution is going to say that was a difference is that donald trump was running for president and

they falsified these documents in order to hide the fact that it was hush money. >> but again, i don't think the proof is there yet that he knew about this level of granular detail. >> the fact that he signed the check, that's not the crime. >> the bookkeeping is the crying. >> i wasn't suggesting that signing the check was the crime, but rather that it indicates that he understood stirred that this was a repayment for the scheme that he was gonna get $35,000 over the course of a period of time i mean, i also think that just the idea that trump simply could have done what you suggested. i think we wouldn't really even be dealing with this but but michael cohen took out a loan on his house, paid in advance, waited until after the election to be repaid. i mean, there was an attempt to conceal this arrangement from the public. i think that is pretty clear based on just the timeline of things that happened. >> we've gotten the full testimony now for the transcript going to, character. you've been looking at anything stand out yeah.

>> i mean, i think at the moment if we look at 20:18, this is after michael cohen gives the new york times a statement and says that he paid the, uh, hundred and $30,000 without donald trump knowing and then hope hicks is testifying about the next day she talks a donald trump and that he's telling her about his, his conversation with but michael cohen. so what she testifies to is this is when being questioned by the prosecutor, she said, i didn't know michael to be in especially charitable person. um, or selfless person. he's the kind of person who seeks credit. the prosecutor said, did mr. trump's say anything else about this issue when he told you that michael made the payment just that he thought it was a generous some thing to do do and he was appreciative of the loyalty that's all i remember. the prosecutor says. did he say anything about the timing of the news reporting regarding picks, oh, he yes, he wanted to know how it was playing and just my thoughts and opinion about this story versus having the story a different kind of story before the campaign had michael not made that payment? and i think mr. trump's opinion was that it was better to be dealing with it now, and that would

have been bad to have had that story come out before the election. so this was the last thing that we'll hicks testified when questioned by the prosecutor was what she said before the right before the crying. >> right. this was the final thing that the prosecutors left the jury hearing her say which was she saying? she doesn't believe the story that michael cohen had advanced this money on his own but also saying that trump was glad that he had to deal this in 2018 because it would have been much worse to deal with it before the election. >> kaitlan asked the former president about the access hollywood tape them, they're seen town hall last year, i want to play a click there was a tape deposition of view from october in it. you defended the comments that you made on that access hollywood tape about being able to grab women, how you want do you stand by those comments? >> i said if you're famous and rich or whatever i said, but i said if you're star you are. and i said, women led you. i didn't say you grew up. i said

women let you didn't use that word. but if you look women led, you your hours in a deposition bow that are result should be a storable that a powerful they tend to do pretty well in a lot of different ways. okay and you would like me to take that back? >> i can't take it back because it happens to be true i mean, one, he said grabbed them in the audio. >> anyone can listen to it. it's not really private burden. it's not up for dispute to what i'm so struck by listening back to that now is the video they played in court today for the jury to hear was trump, his video that he put out on twitter after that video came out, i mean, there was the crisis moment as hope hicks testified today, i hurricane was expected to make landfall that night. no one in the news. she said, we don't even know where it made landfall or anything because people were only talking a hurricane right? in a political sense, obviously. but donald trump it out that video apologizing and then in your debate question, he said he was embarrassed. that is language. he does not use anymore no matter what he does or what happens, he never says

apologized. he never says he's embarrassed. and so it also speaks to how he is changed since 2016 and how he views himself well through this political lins is someone who really in his view is untouchable, but in a deposition that wasn't taken not that long ago. he defended the common city, made the video will and just to underscore that moment when this came out, i were at the time was working for the freedom caucus. jim jordan was about to go to an event in ohio with mike pence and there was genuine discussion that he may not go to the event that pence might not show up for the event there was basically a pause on all fronts, even within the rnc debate. is this campaign even going to move forward? so it is important to remember that context because another bombshell like this, having come out at the time, would've been incredibly significant. well hope hicks has asked about that on the stand today and she talked about paul ryan had an event in wisconsin that trump was supposed to go to. >> and then she said it was sort of the prosecution said that he he turned trump down. she said, actually it's more nuance and she went on to explain that paul ryan kind of

reorganized it so that to de-emphasize trump and maybe paul, right? and wouldn't be there and then she says trump decided not to go because he there's insulted, i guess. >> and i believe reince priebus gotten to try to facilitate that so it wouldn't look like a clean break at the time, but that's that's accurate. >> i mean, this was a moment where steve benen loves to tell the story, but they all sat around a conference table that people that she was describing who were there as they were in the middle of the debate prep with de ferran hold from the post e-mailed them to say, hey, we've got this really embarrassing audio tape of trump. and they kinda went around the room and trump asked if they thought he should drop out. and a lot of them, including reince priebus, said that they believed he should. steve bannon, i believe as he characterizes, it was one of the only people who did not believe, but it was such a moment in the campaign where people did genuinely think trump may drop out of the race. >> well, i was also central moment, i will say in the debate prep with they were doing debate prep. and that same moment. we were doing debate prep as one of the moderators of that debate and it's suddenly as soon as it hit all our plans for what the

first question was going to be. and like energy policy, right? >> it all went out the window and then there was this whole day long drama behind the scenes of how do we ask it? we know exactly what's the wording gonna be and what's the follow-up going to be and sort of planning that all out. >> i mean, i think what caitlin was saying about trump changing the way he talks about the access hollywood tape that was such a seminal moment for him politically because he one and how do you not one, i think you know, obviously everything would have changed, but the lesson that trump learn from that, similarly from charlottesville when he made the state lance about the charlottesville and then he tried to walk it back. and ever since then, he's been denying that he ever said there were very fine people on both sides. trump has learned the lesson, never to walk a thing back never ever to walk a thing back. and that has become his i just want to point out the

first 30 minutes that's a vector bay were i mean, i was on the stage and martha raddatz and nobody knew how this was going to play out nobody knew donald trump had held this press conference with bill clinton accusers. >> he had brought them to the debate hall they both walked out there. they didn't shake hands, they didn't shake hands with the moderators. the tension, the molecules of the air on that said were charged in that room. and i mean, i've done other debates before never committee of the presidential debate, but primary debates i've never experienced a 20 minutes outside of a combat zone that was so charged and just almost anything could have had. and he started following her around on stage. i mean, the whole thing was it was just stunning to be a part of yeah. >> i mean, i remember i was covering hillary clinton at the time. the fact that he brought bill clinton's accusers to that debate created this incredible circus atmosphere.

but it also made people believed that he was just going to kind of bulldozer through this moment i think it was kind of a mixed bag on the debate stage, but it was really was because ultimately the end result of all of this, probably because there was not another woman or accuser who came forward. the end result of all of this was that the access hollywood tape didn't sink him. and so he is totally emboldened by that experience. variants. and every other experience that he's had subsequently that has left him empowered after these moments that would have killed anybody else's political career. >> it's a revisionist history where he is see how he talked about that then and then look at how he was talking about one year ago, he saying that's actually not what i said. well, you can hear him. >> the audio tape they played. yes. today, that michael cohen surreptitiously taped of him and donald trump discussing it. trump posted today, they cut off part of it that was actually very positive for him. there's no evidence of that. his attorneys did not argue that in court at las, you know,

and it was just a moment where he tries to seek to reframe things even when there is there document evidence, if there is an audio tape, he tries to basically reframe things and the question is how that plays. >> they argued this in front of the judge today about the evidence of the chain of custody of that tape, and also that the prosecution is saying that a call came in, which is what sort of cut off that call in the defense is trying to raise questions about well, what's the evidence that a call came in and how do you determine that every defendant in history who has been caught on tape always maintains that as soon as that tape ended, something great for them it's worth noting i, sure much more had debited harmful katelyn just mentioned on the access hollywood story that he himself broke. >> he's joining us next to the question of whether the former president has, again violated his gag order but it will show you what he posts on social media last nine, you get a former federal judges take on that as well. and later, given all the trump world turmoil that hope hicks were counted today and that we just talked about some perspective on how

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the federal court in washington and this is cnn we were talking earlier about judge merchan and his demeanor in core, which he has maintained despite significant challenges, you can say surrounding this trial, including defendant with his own social network. >> he's already held them in criminal contempt for violating his gag order and are still weighing a second batch of alleged violations now there's more last night, defendant trump posted this clip from steve bannon's podcast during which andrew giuliani attack the judge's daughter the gag order that he is violating that according to the judge, that donald trump is violating, is just pointing out the fact that the judge's daughter has profited to the tune of nine he million dollars. >> that's right. over $90 from adam shift, kamala harris, and other leftists joining the panel is former federal judge shira scheindlin do you think judge marchand would or should react to from posting that video? >> well, it is another attack

on the judge's daughter and the judge has said, clearly that's off limits. so i think as usual, trump is going right up to the line and maybe just over that line some days you sort of think he's baiting the judge and daring him to put them in jail sometimes you wonder if he wants that to help him with his victim hood argument. i really wonder about that it almost seems like he wants to show that the gag order does have an impact on him at all. >> i mean, trump just keeps it's like he's like a toddler. it's like you he keeps pushing back on the restraint. >> you don't want to call a little fao on donald trump. >> he was he was in front of judge lewis kaplan. >> you can take the fifth, your honor so harsh so harsh on him and his attorney. so harsh. >> he was in front of judge engoron, who was so harsh on him and his attorneys roshan is not even in the league of those other two guy.

>> he knows that this judge is letting his lawyers try their case, letting me do aggressive cross-examinations letting them do their things. so he knows what he's saying because he now is a basis of comparison. between two while the judges who kick his butt and kicked his lawyer was also interesting to hear judge merchan this morning before the jury came in talking to donald trump. >> and through todd blanche saying, i think your client has a misunderstanding. he absolutely has every right to testify addressing the comments that trump had made about all i am not allowed to testify because of this gag order, which is just patently false and just ridiculous. i mean, nobody listening to judge marchand commonly and politely sort of informing donald trump reminding of his of his rights. i mean, just no one sitting there listening to that would would really believe that this guy is this rabid animal going after him, know and i think i think think they were both acting to some extent, trump knew darn well, that he was permitted to testify. that was an act. and the judge carefully

explaining it to him, knew that he already knew it. so both of them were making good record, so to speak, for their positions but it was all known the problem with that is also no one in that room thinks that, but that's a very limited amount of people, most of them reporters, 12 of them witnesses. there's a whole atmosphere out there that does believe this judge is biased against donald trump because he tells him that and conservative media and his allies tell them that and they point to, i think like 30 bucks that the judge donated to democrats at some point. and so that is something that they feel like they've been effective and using that and pushing, putting that out there and as always with donald trump, he doesn't care what's actually real. it's the perception of it what i think is that those people will never change their mind anyway, doesn't matter what the truth is. >> they've made up their mind. so if i can show shine and picking up on caitlin point, judge merchan did donate a few $35 to anti-trump. >> if you had a defendant in front of you, chris jones, and

you were donated $35 to defeat chris jones for office a few years ago, would you recuse yourself? >> the real answer to is i would never have donated five. >> that's a good point. you're not supposed to not supposed had broken that rule and donated $35 to defeat chris jones. and now chris jones is liberties at stake in front of you. would you have recused i have said on record that i thought there was enough there that might have warranted or recusal and that was one of the facts that plus other reasons, i thought he should do his team loved that trump's team love that you said that and you said that on my show and that was something they circulated and pushed out there because they believed it was i mean, they rarely see a retired judge helping make their case and they seized on that really, i know. but i wasn't helping anybody all i call it, as i said, can, i just follow up on that. there is an important distinction between the judge having a conflict and a judge being a good or lousy judge. >> i mean, i think judge merchan is doing an extraordinary job of managing this case, of running it, of giving a fair trial. i also think he should have recused i agree with judge silent on that, but those are two

separate issues. it's one is not an answer to the other i agree. >> i agree with you and i agree that he should have recused himself, but anderson, he did do the right thing he went to the committee on the judiciary, the state of new york, and he said, i made this donation. and my daughter works here. can i i was assigned this case. can i still handle the case? and that committee gave him the green light? >> based on what you know about hope hicks is testimony and the motion she showed me how impactful do you think she is i think a show of emotion by a witness is very impactful on a jury. >> but what the jury decides is, was it an act or was it genuine? and that's a big question. so what does the emotion mean? >> because it's not necessary? i mean, it's open to interpretation, isn't true, but i think the first question is, is it real? is it because some witnesses put on a show when they're just sort of acting at the end of the testimony, they kind of break down and hundred over. but if the if the jury thinks it's real, i think they

have a lot of sympathy for that and they tried to figure out what it means. and i thought would have meant here is that she had once like this guy, she'd once been close to trump and it was hard for her to realize that she was being a witness against him, i think are really hurt her. and so that makes her very genuine witness in the jurors are good to think about that all weekend. >> yeah, that's right. i mean, that's my sense courtrooms are strange places, emotionally. they evoke awda motions you talked earlier anderson about your experience as a width only changes the way you see the trial actually being bused in this room again, which is why which they were cameras. yeah. it's almost hard to explain to me the first time gave a closing. i don't think it was in front of you, your honor, is a different judge, but i gave a closing in a major case. i almost felt myself crying in front of the jury. i don't know why to this de it easier guys are frothy you guys these guys? >> hey, guys. these guys cry on command they can just bring it up next method actress right have anything to do with the

facts of the case. it was just it's this dramatic crescendo of something you've been working on an invested in from us end nothing to do with the case. i held it back by the way. >> all right. appreciate. but it doesn't evoke unexpected emotions were both grizzled veteran it's, it doesn't impact us most of my juries, i would talk to the juries, jurors after the end of the trial. and i say, what was really important to you, what struck you, and sometimes they would say witness so and so really got to me because of what she said and how she said it. and it was always fascinating to talk to the jurors after that, i always talk if the trial because i learned i learned so much what went well and what didn't what do you know why didn't believe that? but i'm thinking what i was on best wouldn't know. it wasn't it was actually that one in your experience? >> i mean, for vr role lawyers here and judge, it. do do jurors pay attention? i mean, is it is it sure. i mean, many present the facts of the case that they learn or is it their judgment about the honesty and character of the person testifying? >> i think to a great degree, it's their judgment as to the

credibility of witnesses. i think it does boil down to that because many cases some witnesses say one thing, some say exactly the opposite. who do you believe? and it boils down, i think to a great degree to credibility. >> and so it boils down to a gut feeling based on what happens in that courtroom. >> it's a very human process when we think of the jury is this model with the jury, but it's 12 human beings. when we learned about them, a couple of weeks ago, there a woman who is at, it, professional man who the two lawyers, but it's just the human and i'm also constantly but surprised by who juries believe in who they don't. i've seen juries take the word of people way worse than michael cohen and returned convictions. and i've seen the opposite too. i've seen juries reject testimony from people who i thought were great ones. we were sitting here for two hours, like analyzing everything that whole pig stated and how she handled the microphone and our hair. and i don't know if jurors are doing that. i think tomorrow they're going to communions. they're going to do some gardening. they're going to foster a dog. and you know, kinda go on with their life and monday they'll

get back into the groove sometimes they just like some witnesses and take a disliked other witness and it's visceral and we don't entire know work though when it's kind of a mixed witness like hope hicks who made did well for the prosecution, but also for the defense. >> where do you think that falls with the jury? i think that makes her appear very credible because she didn't try to get him she was trying to be fair and balanced, so that made her credible witness. >> and each side can argue that because she's credible, you should believe this part scheindlin. >> thank you. it's great to have you the rest day with this on the stand today, hope hicks revealed how trump world first learned about the access hollywood tape. who broke it to her and the rest of the world we're about to be joined when are the reporter who broke that story to her directly in an email or during nothing dems my light like come migraine with nortech ott. i found relief. >> the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent all-in-one to those with migraine. >> i see you for the acute

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matthew is battering america and then a different kind of storm hit so big it would knock the hurricane out of the news cycle, as was mentioned in court today by hope hicks, that recollection from former trump campaign secretary hicks on the stand referring to the infamous access hollywood tape walk in the jury through how she first learned about it and the crisis that it would spark inside trump world. >> this portion is the reason why i listen automatically attracted to beautiful. i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet i don't even know. when you were started. they let you do it you can do anything, whatever you want, grabbing butts do any of that like delegates is like so get out of the way it went on. >> hope hicks learned about it through an email from then washington post reporter guy named david fahrenthold seeking comment. it was shown in court today, the subject line from

him, the email was urgent wash she didn't post query. the email contained a transcript of what was said on that access hollywood tape. asieh, what her first reaction was hicks replied, quote, i was very concerned. i was concerned very concerned with his now as the reporter who broke that bombshell to tell her and the rest of the world, david fahrenthold is now an investigative reporter with the new york times. david has good to see you again. i'm wonder what you made of hope hicks is testimony, particularly how your scoop on the access hollywood tape was dealt with behind the scenes the campaign because i'm assuming this is probably the first time you've heard what it was like inside trump world at that time? >> yeah, it's a rare opportunity as a reporter to get this sort of see the other side of a day like this. so yeah, we sent them this transcript. these questions were around one 30 in the afternoon. and all i knew at that point was the responses i got back from them, which was first this doesn't sound like mr. trump sentence the video to be sure. and then after we send them the video do they then confirmed it was him today? it

was real so interesting and sort of surreal to see all the steps that happened in between. >> we learned in court according to hope hicks, she went to trump, showed him the email from you and he said, well, that are told him about it and he said, well, that doesn't sound like me. is that that where she got the response to send to you saying it doesn't sound like mr. trump must have been at the time when she said that. that doesn't sound like him. i was like, i mean, after all we had remember where this was the end of the 2016 campaign it sounded exactly like even in the written word yeah. right. so i thought really she was saying that like in her own voice, like this doesn't sound like the man i know now we know it was just trump saying it doesn't sound like me and she just passed that on verbatim she was talking about the length of time that they had to respond. >> you said you reach out your one 30 i think she testified today that the story was publish at 3:30. correct me if i'm wrong, what what how much time was there and at what

point did you send her the tape we sent her as you saw about 1:30, we center that transcript. >> she comes comes back to i don't remember when, but at some point later and says it doesn't sound like him send us the tape there was some debate internally on our end about whether we would send them on the tape and we decided we would always send to the tape it like three, 50 and said, look we are convinced this is him. we don't need you to confirm this is him on the tape. we're going to publish our story at 4:00 p.m. you can comment or you could not comment, but the story is going up then, and they called back right at four and said, okay, wait, it's him right here's his excuse for whitebark like that on the if he gets out of the bus. so i mean, it's there's there's little question. it's actually him it's yeah. >> what else do it out to you about her testimony today? >> i will i laughed at the her initial sort of email to the blast email to the people in the trump campaign asking, what should i do about this? she's like, well, here are some options and one of her options was was denied and i deny which i love that because that was

obviously the way the trump campaign worked. and 2016 was just no matter what was happening happening. and i've been dealing with them for months. no matter what proof you had they didn't care if it was right. they didn't want to figure out if you were right. i just wanted to deny it. it was funny for me to see that inaction, that first reaction was, let's not even find out if it's true. maybe we should just say it isn't just the night without learning more the. in now, trump world to sort of trying to downplay the impact of this tape, of this moment for everybody who lived through it, they remember it. >> how do you remember the impact this story had once you published it? >> and there have been part of anything like it. so we published it about four in the afternoon on friday, the washington post had sort of a little internal systems have meant it was like a look like a speedometer to show how much traffic, how many people would read your story. and it was like a bugs bunny moment. it literally spun around like the buddy it has been read all over the world i've never been part of the story that had that kind of impact. now, obviously, i

didn't write the story thinking of, okay, we're going to sink trump's campaign. and when it out, i didn't think okay, i have sunk trump's campaign. >> there was another month left to go, but it obviously had a profound effect to the point that even paul ryan, very prominent republicans were walked king away from trump, refusing to be seen with trump by the end of that de now, less, i mean, you joined the trump white house later. >> was there a ghost or a shadow from that access hollywood tape still sort of around the west wing? >> yeah, very much so. so i joined in the end of 2017, is the vice president's press secretary. and shortly after as when the karen mcdougal story became public, like an early 2018. so it was sort of there was just it felt like something you can't get away from the problems that you had with women accusers coming forward e. jean carroll was even part of the discussion at that time. so it was always sort of underlying. but the thing i want to underscore, we're talking about this in 2024 republicans made peace with us in 2016. i can't explain why i can't defend it, but most of them said, you know, it's obviously him on that tape. you

can see it with your own eyes, hear with their own years and so i kind of wonder what this case there's the jury and then there's the public opinion. i don't think many republicans are going to care about these additional facts that we're learning. it's stunning to say, realizing that in 2016, that's nearly sung kim and people were ready to walk away. >> that's not where i'm probably evangelicals yeah, republicans, there are more firmly with him now, even as more facts have come out, even as he is now been found liable in a civil suit around sexual assault. >> and you know what the thinking and trump world does is basically because there are people jason miller is one of the campaign aides who was in that room in the courtroom with donald trump and has been there a lot he was one of the ones that hope hicks emailed that de and copied him on just to speak to the people who have been around him for a long time and there's this thinking in trump world that if they could survive access hollywood, they could survive anything and nothing phases them even when there's a big story that's damaging as much as it did that day. and i just think it speaks to how they handle things and the denied deny statement that

hope picks out. those have reflux action. >> they still do that. i will report something completely factual that maybe has even that damaging to them. it's just a fact and they'll say denied i'll fake news, denial, fake news. and then we prove that it's correct, but that's just their instinct always denied factual thing that is a great point. sorry, just quickly because i remember being on air force one with hope hicks and mid-2020 in a story that i thought was shocking is about trump's taxes. play 30 questions from the new york times. i went instead, we've got to get this to the press this meant this as a huge store and she's like this is nothing you don't you've not seen anything you weren't there in 2016, we survived access hollywood. that is the mindset that was their barometer. and if you survive to everything else would be fine. yeah. and it's changed all of her republican politics since that. i mean, every sort of trumpian candidate has to have that same mindset free piece of adversity. they come across, they have to just barrel right through it. i do think though there is a little bit of revisionist history in trump world a lot of trump's a

little i mean, being generous here, but especially after those that last six weeks of that campaign, it wasn't just access hollywood i mean, a lot of things happen. there was the anthony weiner stuff, there was the laptop with hillary clinton. there were other factors that were at play there, and not to mention that, but the election was extremely close. it wasn't like trump won in a landslide. so there is this tendency in trump world to over-interpret their ability to survive access? hollywood, not taking into consideration all of the other elements that went into what happened in 2016. but trump still lives with that sort of god complex where he's like, i'm the guy who did what no one else could ever do before. and i did it just short sheer force of will because the american people didn't care. >> i think yes, some americans did not care, but i also think there were a lot of other factors that went into it as david, i mean, you're reporting you it's easy to forget this because things so much has

happened over the last couple years, but there was also all those fables about donald trump's charity and his supportive veterans and giving millions and millions of dollars to veterans your reporting showed that just was not the case. >> that's right. one of the really interesting things about 20:16 was learning so much of what trump had said about his charitable giving this sort of bruce wayne persona he had was included a lot of brags about his charitable giving was wrong. i mean, even in the course of the campaign, he is campaigned, said he'd given out $1 million out of his own pockets to veterans to veterans charities and it turned out to be completely aligned yet and given $1 that we would use things like he would use his charities money to buy giant portraits of himself. i liked that through stories because you've learned so much about trump by viewing out in private, just the same with the access hollywood showed how he talked in private the non-profit story is shown how he acted in private how charitable he was or wasn't when no one was looking yeah. the defense was able to keep

the jury from seeing the access hollywood tape. does that really matter? are given how much they'd heard about and i'm sure you remember, judge merchan gets the credit for the jury not hearing that. given the defense asked, but he granted that. it does this is defense attorney. you want to crawl under the table. what you hear your client's voice saying something nasty and there's nothing you can do. you can't cross examine it. you can't. so yes, i think it does matter even though they've heard the word, it's different when they hear them coming out of your clients. >> i think this aspect of the prosecution's case has come in clear and strong and straightforward, which is when that tape was a bombshell in the campaign, they were panicked and they couldn't afford to have the stormy daniel's allegations come out, and that's why they made the payment and that's an important but it's not the whole case, but it's an important part of the case that part strong di me that gold you're reporting always just extraordinary. so thank you so much. appreciate it. thanks for being with us. have a good weekend. coming up, we're going to discuss the first time that hope hicks testified about her former boss for the former member of the january 6

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keeping this family together. you have no idea? >> i had no idea i'm dr. sanjay gupta. and this is cnn so before hope hicks took the stand today, her intimate knowledge of the foreign presence thinking was on display during her 2022 testimony to the january 6 committee committee used her recorded testimony and it's finally well, hearing to demonstrate that in the words of the congresswoman zoloft grin quote, trump was told repeatedly by his campaign advisers, government officials, and others that there was no evidence to support his claims of election fraud. >> take a look. >> i, was becoming increasingly concerned that we were damaging we were damaging his legacy what did the president say in response to what you've just described? he said something along the lines of you know,

nobody will care about my legacy if i lose so that won't matter. the only thing that matters is is winning we're joined now by a member of the january 6 committee, former republican congressman adam kinzinger. >> reason the also the author of renegade defending democracy and liberty in are divided country how would how would you describe hope hicks is credibility and her willingness to be candid to the january 6 committee because it's entering to compare her testimony to your committee versus her testimony today? >> yeah look i mean, my impression of her was going as far as i know, honest not necessarily eager to come in front of the committee? not probably not eager to go in front of this courtroom but does or duty and does so honestly, and that was the impression i got was she wasn't really high the one thing you had to ask the questions, obviously, she's not going to volunteer it but that

she had a real concern for donald trump, as you mentioned, that clip, she was concerned about his legacy at one point after january 6, there were text messages. i forget who she sent them to where she said we all look like domestic terrorists now. so she's a pretty sane person in a pretty insane world and unfortunately she's been caught up in a lot of this. donald trump. she was in the room basically anywhere he was and unfortunately, she's had to testify not before, just our committee now in front of this court, but i think she's had to come in and talk to the intel committee in the past two. so there's kinda gotten caught up in all of this. >> you were sitting republican member of congress during the fall of 2016 when the access hollywood tape was revealed and obviously sent shockwaves through your party how surreal is it after all the political legal drama in the past eight years, i hope hicks was on the witness stand in this particular trial today, amid all the drama that's still pending i mean, look, it's all surreal. >> i still i mean, i still can't even believe donald

trump was president to be honest, a few and when that hit, i remember i had said even before that that i couldn't support donald trump for president because of what he had made about the fallen soldier juror and good when after the fallen soldier at the i think it was at the convention, but yeah, i mean, sitting that when this tape came out, i mean, i had a number of colleagues that then officially in public said they can't support donald trump, and i can tell you there was a lot of discussion. there was a lot of hope that trump would in back out of the campaign that somehow there would be the party be able to put somebody else in there probably mike pence, and i remember then specifically when he said i'm not getting out, i'm going to stay in this race. the discussion among other members of congress that are republicans were like, well, he's definitely going to lose now. but as you all had mentioned in the prior segment, there was so much that happened even after that that it kinda washed under the bus and the komi and hillary clinton thing was the last thing people were thinking of. yeah, i'm bringing

the panel here as well. this trial is moving quite fast. >> it really is. i'm going to i'm going to say you can make memorial day plans. i think we're going to have a verdict by memorial daily going to go out the limb here. yeah. it's moving quickly. >> let's take about what's left. michael cohen's definitely going to take the stand. and i think that's a week. i think that's four days. david pecker was two-and-a-half days, but other than cohen will be on the stand for four days? yeah including direct and cross-examination. >> but other than michael cohen. okay. stormy daniel's is a can mcdougal's or maybe kellyanne conway is or may be true? ending towards no less are saying unlikely. how long are they going to be mean hope hicks was three hours today, maybe a little more. you'll probably have a few more of these document custodian type witnesses, the interns and the da's investigators, but this is moving neither sayyed is dragging their feet. the direct exams are as they should be direct and focus defense lawyers sometimes like to drag out these endless cross-examinations, but both todd, blanche, and emil bove air or former prosecutors, they just have gotten right to the point this is moving quickly and efficiently.

>> i did something today that they've the trump team has never done, which is stipulate, which basically agreed that the sky is blue and the prosecutors and the defense both agree. and so that is the sense within the teams that i also spoke with, maybe two to three more weeks of this and what it's going to look like. i think a lot of it relies on if they do have to continue bringing a witnesses who are verifying that recordings are real and texts are real and truth, social post are real. >> so whenever it's worth, i was in court wednesday on a pretty high-profile case, and the judge gerund it to friday, may 31st, i believe. and we were walking out and i started the clerk that everyone's scurried up to the bench and say talking about and then they call us back in and they said well, we think there's gonna be another big case still going on here. now, this is just court offices in clerks guessing they're not lawyers guessing, but so we they had they made his move the date from friday until wednesday when it's a trump day off, which is right after memorial day. so my friend here may not be totally off. >> you have to plan for that.

>> well, obviously do not have trump on that witness list that you mentioned. >> i assume he's not taking the stand. i mean, now he's already bailing out. he's and he's doing it exactly the way. we predicted on this show. he's going to say as he's already started to do look, they bear the burden of proof. my lawyers have demolished there witnesses so thoroughly that there's no need for me to take the stand and tactically, i mean, that to me is the exact right color. i'm sure you would be begging him not to take the stagy. i would handcuff from this is in many ways, i think for the general public, one of the least important trump cases, and i think seeing this and even learning some new information from hope hicks under oath underscores why january 6, a case was so much public scrutiny and things that people actually want to see a resolution. >> it's so important that it be tried before the election. there's so much new information that could come out. having folks who have been reticent to testify, half do under oath, and i don't think that's likely the congressman me. do you think the outcome of this trial is going to matter politically one way or another i think it will have an impact. i don't think it's going to necessarily be a decisive impact, but if he's guilty and he's guilty of a felony, it

will always say convicted felon donald trump is going to make sense around the margins. >> in any election, frankly, where i mean, it could be decided by a few thousand votes in a few states, it's certainly not going to help him and it may hurt him just a little bit and it was the same thing when he was impeached. >> he was indicted. i mean, he is now the presumptive republican nominee. people weren't didn't believe he could get here. i think there is a lot of skepticism. i don't think we know the political impact because i don't think the trial has been good for them. they went into it thinking it's a no known we already had all of this out there and he's still won the election. but to always point he also lost in 2020 and it's not guaranteed. they don't. >> the numbers when you've been looking at the poles, which are just a snapshot, had been pretty close between trump and biden and they become more even as we've gotten closer to the summer. >> and so it we don't know. >> we don't and we may not know in general because between now and when this trial ends and when the election is

approximately 50,000 lifetimes so many things can happen between now and then however anytime the voters are reminded of all of the things that donald trump comes with, that is generally not a good thing for donald trump. he has really benefited from being able to have some space between his last presidency and now. and that's actually what's been the hardest thing for the biden campaign to deal with or to thank everybody on the panel. thank you for spending friday night with us. congressman as well, congressman adam kinzinger appreciated the news continues right after a short break from friends coming over to mom's coming over so many ways to save life, ready, wallet happy. >> but three, whole foods market at morgan stanley, old school hard work meets all new thinking to help you see untapped possibilities and relentlessly work with you to

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