a quick programming note for you, in just 12 hours the supreme court will hear oral arguments on donald trump's claim that he is immune from all prosecution. msnbc will air the full audio of those arguments starting live at 10:00 a.m. during those arguments trump himself will be sitting for the third day of testimony in his manhattan hush money trial. so tomorrow night it's a bonanza. we will have special coverage of both of those big trump trials led by my colleague rachel maddow at 8:00 p.m. do not miss it. that's our show tonight. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening. just when we thought the big

news from arizona today was the house representatives repealing the 1864 bill, getting three republicans to switch, we now have 11 republicans in arizona indicted, it's 7 p.m. in arizona right now, alex, and there's 11 indicted fake electors there who may be struggling with what they want for dinner at this particular hour. >> maybe thinking about what they should do in the medium term, maybe thinking not be on the stand, maybe being prosecution witnesses, just maybe. >> yeah. we all discovered tonight in arizona law co-conspirator is written without a hyphen, never seen that before, but there's 50 states. >> that's the sign of the time, isn't it? how do they punctuate co- conspirator in arizona? sign of the times. have a good show. well, the breaking news of the night is that donald

trump's name appears in another indictment. this one is in arizona. the attorney general has charged 11 republican fake electors and seven trump associated, including mark meadows and rudolph giuliani, with a criminal conspiracy involving several felonies. the indictment says it was "a scheme" to defraud by preventing the lawful transfer of the presidency of the united states keeping president donald j. trump in office against the will of arizona voters and depriving arizona voters of their right to vote and have their votes counted under the united states constitution, arizona constitution article 7. president trump appears as unindicted co-conspirator one.

"defendants' attempts to declare unindicted co- conspirator one and pence the winner of the 2020 election and the law involved numerous other charged and uncharged co- conspirators. the names of all of the defendants who are residents of arizona were revealed publicly in the indictment, but the names of seven other out of state defendants are still redacted since they have not yet been served with the indictment or weren't yet served with the indictment when it was released. mark meadows' name is redacted in the indictment, but it could not be more obvious in this line that begins with the redaction and says, "redaction was unindicted co-conspirator one's chief of staff in 2020," mystery solved. the other trump associates easily identifiable from the description of their actions in the indictment are attorneys john eastman and john ellis, trump aide boris epstein, christina bobb and trump campaign operative mike roman.

the indictment says, "defendants and unindicted co- conspirators schemed to prevent the lawful transfer of the presidency to keep unindicted co-conspirator one in office against the will of arizona's voters. this scheme would have deprived arizona voters of their right to votes and have their votes counted. the defendants voted for then donald trump and vice president mike pence on december 14, 2020, falsely claiming to be duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states from the state of arizona. defendants deceived the citizens of arizona by falsely claiming that those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. in reality defendants intended that their false votes for trump/pence would encourage

pence to reject the biden/harris votes on january 6th, 2021, regardless of the outcome. the scheme failed when mike pence accepted all certified biden/harris votes on january 6th , 2021. the indicted fake electors include kelli ward, who was chair of the arizona republican party, who was indicted with her husband michael ward as a fake elector. two republican members of the state legislature have been indicted, jacob hoffman and anthony kern. for anyone who still needs a lesson in how much your vote matters, the democratic attorney general of the state of arizona won her election by 280 votes, 280 votes out of 2.5 million votes cast. so if a couple hundred people didn't get to vote that day or voted differently in that election, we would not be

reading these indictments tonight. tonight arizona's attorney general, kris mayes, announced the indictments. >> let me thank everyone for their patience as we conducted a thorough and professional investigation into the fake elector scheme in our state. i understand for some of you today didn't come fast enough and i know i'll be criticized by others for conducting this investigation at all, but as i have stated before and will say here again today, i will not allow american democracy to be undermined. we're here because justice demands an answer to the efforts that the defendants and other unindicted co- conspirators allegedly took to undermine the will of arizona's voters during the 2020 presidential election. arizona's election was free and fair. the people of arizona elected

president biden. unwilling to accept this fact, the defendants charged by the state grand jury allegedly schemed to prevent the lawful transfer of the presidency. the defendants and other unindicted co-conspirators raised false claims of widespread voter fraud in arizona to pressure elections officials to change the outcome of a transparency, free, and fair democratic election. those efforts ultimately failed when officials stood firm, followed their statutory duties and officially certified arizona's election on november 30th , 2020. these defendants deceived the citizens of arizona by falsely claiming that those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. in reality, the defendants intended that the false votes for trump and pence would

encourage vice president pence to reject the certified biden/harris electors' votes regardless of the result of any legal challenge. as you will recall, none of the legal challenges filed in arizona state in federal courts regarding the 2020 election were remotely successful at any stage of the case. that scheme failed when vice president pence upheld the rule of law and accepted all certified biden/harris votes on january 6th , 2021. a state grand jury made up of everyday regular arizonans has now handed down felony indictments for all 11 republican electors as well as several others connected to this scheme. these charges include fraud, forgery, and conspiracy. these charges are class 2, 4, and 5 felonies. these are serious indictments. our office will continue its

investigation into the efforts to illegally subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election. >> leading off our breaking news discussion at this hour is timothy hefey, criminal defense attorney and former u.s. attorney serving as lead investigator for the january 6th committee, also andrew weissmann, co-host of the podcast prosecuting donald trump, an msnbc legal analyst. andrew, i just want to put up on the screen as we discuss the six different crimes that include forgery, tampering with a public record. what do you make of what you're reading here? >> a couple things. one, it's very similar to what we have seen in other states where there have been charges in georgia and michigan where

there was a top down scheme. what i mean by that is that tim and his colleagues put together a vast amount of proof that was added onto by jack smith which showed this fake elector scheme was happening from the campaign down to the states. this was not bubbling up at a grassroots level. that's why you're seeing fake electors at the arizona level and people at the campaign level and into the white house. that's the second point. i was struck by on page 44 of this indictment eric herschmann who was a white house counsel seems once again to be very much an important witness in the case and he is on a text message where basically he and a colleague are talking about how they aren't going to sign off on this because he views this as -- and this is a quote

in the indictment -- certifying illegal votes, certifying illegal votes is what he wrote and he said someone else is going to have to sign it and he says, "rudy, boris, and jenna," and those names are actually three of the people who are charged or appear to be charged. so those are my quick takes of the charges here. >> tim, did you learn anything in this indictment that you hadn't already had a pretty clear sense of in the january 6th investigation? >> yeah, lawrence. a few details, but not the big picture. the big picture has been clear for a while. this was a top down plan which becomes essentially a predicate for vice president pence or the supreme court or some entity to do something to prevent the transfer of power. so there's some color.

there's some details of which we were not aware. we did not talk to as many people about arizona specifically as the attorney general has done, but it doesn't change the core narrative that the fake electors were an indispensable means to promote this multipart plan to try to prevent the certification and transfer of power. >> andrew weissmann, he was indicted in georgia and has pleaded guilty in georgia and there were reports he had traveled to arizona to cooperate with this investigation. >> that seems to be the main reason why he was not charged here is that he is actually cooperating or maybe i should say at least cooperating enough

to not be charged. i think the jury's out about just how candid he has been, but it's otherwise hard to explain why his name does not appear and presumably it's because he has counsel who has said look, if you do not want to be on the other side of a v, meaning united states versus or in this case arizona versus, you need to start finding religion and join team america. so it's possible that that is the main reason that you don't see his name here because otherwise as tim knows very well from having investigated this deeply, he was in the thick of things and we know that actually also from his own plea in georgia. >> so this meeting of the fake electors was publicized at the time. i think we have video of it where they allowed it to be covered actually as though it was some kind of real event

with some import to it. we'll show that video in the control room as soon as we can put it -- there it is. that's the actual meeting right there we're putting on the screen. those are the indicted fake electors sitting there and the attorney general in the indictment stresses that they were lying about the purposes of that meeting. at the time they were seeing we will only use these electors in the event that donald trump somehow wins one of his legal cases in court that could then allow these electors to be used. the attorney general's indictment says absolutely not. they always planned to try to use these electors on january 6th no matter what happened in court. tim, there's a last line that appears at the end of the charge against every elector beginning with kelli ward and

the last line says, "she did not withdraw her vote even though no legal challenge successfully changed the outcome of arizona's 2020 presidential election." that same line appears at the end of the description of every other elector and what they did and it seems in reading it that this attorney general would not be bringing this prosecution if they actually did what they publicly claimed they were going to do, which is withdraw these electors once the election was certified for joe biden. >> yeah. exactly right. there was one fake elector to whom we spoke in georgia who analogized the fake elector t- shirts in that state to super bowl t-shirts. he said before the super bowl you print t-shirts that say both teams won so that whoever actually wins, their t-shirt is already printed. the other ones get tossed

because the outcome doesn't turn out consistent with the t- shirt. there were fake electors in georgia and other states who believed that this was essentially the same, a contingency, but the language you just cited shows that the arizona electors knew that really isn't tied to the success of any case because the cases have been filed. the cases had been largely disposed of, had not prevailed and even after they weren't withdrawn when all the cases in arizona are rejected for lack of evidence. so the theory here is that there was never any serious contingency. these were meant to be an apparatus for mike pence to choose for political motivation the trump electors because of these vague suspicions of voter fraud absent any evidence. that's what makes it criminal, not a good faith hey, just in case the litigation goes one way, we need this backup plan. the lack of a draw as that language reflects shows this

was always meant to apply and be said and be considered by congress regardless of the litigation. >> andrew, big difference between the georgia indictment and this indictment. donald trump doesn't make it into the indicted column in this indictment. donald trump, as we recall, made his debut in criminal indictments as individual run in new york in the federal indictment of michael cohen in the stormy daniels payoff case. now tonight in arizona he is a co-conspirator one. what is the difference in the evidence between georgia and arizona? obviously we don't have a tape recorded telephone call with the secretary of state of arizona. >> yeah. i mean that obviously is a huge piece of evidence georgia has. it's not clear yet why we have alter egos being charged in

arizona, but not the ego, the main principal person for whom this is done. the fake electors didn't do this on their own. people like rudy giuliani, all of the sort of lawyers are staffed to somebody who is the president, but it's unclear what the lack of proof is. for sure it is because they somehow don't have enough direct evidence yet against him, but it's important to note that i stress the word yet. these are state charges which means regardless of who wins the presidential election, whether it's biden or trump, it doesn't matter because you cannot have a federal pardon of these cases. so these people are going to be going to trial in arizona on these charges. just to be clear, what tim is saying so people understand that this is no joke, these

charges, if proved, really show this is what you see in like petty banana republics. this is fundamentally undermining what it means to be a democracy, absolutely undermining the votes in these states where the idea is whoever won, that doesn't matter. the democracy is not going to apply. i mean this could not be a greater threat to this country over its entire history. >> we're going to squeeze in a quick break with as much more on this when we come back, including some information reported tonight about the grand jury that issued this indictment. we'll be right back. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way.

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the defendant republican presidential electors allegedly plotting with additional defendants then voted for mr. trump and vice president pence on december 14th, 2020, falsely claiming to be the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states from the state of arizona. >> former federal prosecutors tim heaphy and andrew weissmann are back with us. the attorney general also said tonight the investigation is ongoing. they are still working on the investigation, but when you consider the status of donald

trump in this indictment as unindicted co-conspirator one compared to his status in the georgia indictment as an indicted criminal guilty of felonies, it may be that when prosecutors are looking at the actions of a president while he's in office, that they feel they need something like that audio recording of donald trump calling the secretary of state in georgia in which all of us can hear donald trump committing the crime, trump voters all over the country can hear donald trump committing the crime in that phone call, and that may be the level of certainty and public certainty in the evidence that prosecutors want to indict something for actions conducted during the presidency. >> yeah. i think that's actually, lawrence, probably correct.

in georgia the raffensperger call is so damning, the president encouraging the secretary of state to find the needed number of votes to win. we don't have that in arizona. there's some evidence of the president speaking to rusty bowers to encourage a special session, but we don't have at least as far as the select committee was able to determine as much evidence as president trump personally engaging with people in arizona as much as he did with folks in georgia and in michigan and in pennsylvania and elsewhere. so my guess is that the quantum of evidence of his personal participation beyond being generally in charge and the proximate cause of the strategy, the architect, with eastman and giuliani of strategy, more direct evidence of his personal participation in arizona. as andrew said, that might come from some of these people if they cooperate. the nature of a conspiracy is it's a concerted action, people working together and some of

those people say oh, yeah, i talked to president trump and he encouraged me to do this or that. there could be additional evidence that comes as a result of cooperation and guilty pleas from some of the 19 or 20 people indicted thus far. >> andrew, we know rudolph giuliani is losing his license to practice law. he's under a few hundred million dollar judgment for defamation for the poll workers in georgia. he's indicted in georgia. how much pressure does it take for rudolph giuliani to at some point decide i'm going to tell my story? >> well, you would think that pressure is enough right now, but he's not doing that. you have to remember in the civil case brought by the two poll workers where they got about $150 million from the

jury, part of that case involved rudy giuliani simply defying the judge's discovery orders over and over again, meaning both sides are supposed to turn over discovery and he simply didn't do it over and over again. so the judge finally said, look, if you aren't going to turn over the documents you have, i'm going to tell the jury that they should use that against you and can use that as a presumption against you and so you really got the strong sense that he is hiding something because he sort of put himself in a real hole in that case because of his conduct in not complying with those orders. here he's facing yet another criminal case and he clearly has some very direct evidence. if you go to the part that i was just referring to, page 44, there's a discussion there about people saying i'm not sure what rudy is telling essentially the president and so that is really something that may be what's missing from

the arizona case. what is eastman specifically telling the president? what is rudy giuliani specifically telling the president? because, lawrence, as you said, the difference is between a contingent elector scheme and you can have a real contingent elector scheme, but you can't have a fake elector scheme. so that may be part of the issue, that they just don't have that piece nailed down yet. >> so this reporting from politico tonight about the grand jury that conducted this investigation, it says a witness who testified to the grand jury told politico the grand jurors appeared to come from a mix of political backgrounds. some asked questions that suggested they sympathized with democrats while others sounded more politically conservative and still others were inscrutable. the witness was granted anonymity to discuss the secret proceedings. regardless of the politics, the witness described the jurors on the whole as energetic and

proactive, driving substantial lines of questioning even while prosecutors seemed more focused on nuts and bolts efforts to substantiate discreet pieces of evidence. tim, it sounds like an arizona grand jury. >> lawrence, that's america. that's how our system works. it's regular people who are summoned for grand jury service or petit jury service. they go to work every day and then they get this thing in the mail that tells them to show up. they aren't professionals. they aren't part of the deep state like you and me and andrew and everybody else. they're regular folks. this is democracy at its best. the criminal justice system is generally gives authority to regular folks. that's what's happening in new york, in arizona, what will happen in washington, d.c. for that reason, lawrence, i think these regular people's decisions have the potential to move the needle of public

opinion on these same facts of the retelling of the select committee or the media or others may not. this is regular people listening to evidence doing their best to figure stuff out, republicans, democrats from different parts of arizona that put that aside and just do their job. that again is democracy. >> another day, another indictment. tim heaphy, thank you very much for joining our discussion. andrewandrew weissmann, please stay with us. tomorrow donald trump will hear arguments on his supreme court claim that he held absolute hel immunity for any crimes committed as president. andrew weissmann has written the questions the justices should ask tomorrow. he'll give us those questions next. i'm out of breath, and often out of the picture.

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the idea that the january 6th trial would be delayed until after the election, you know, in my view it just can't be the case that a president can attempt to steal an election to seize power and we can't hold him to account until after the next election. >> it is now up to the supreme court when donald trump will actually go to trial in the january 6th case. tomorrow the supreme court will

hear donald trump's appeal of that case and the charges in it claiming criminal immunity for any and all crimes donald trump may have committed while president. on monday donald trump posted this on social media about the criminal prosecutions he is facing. "this is in no way what the founders had no mind. legal experts and scholars have stated that the president must have full presidential immunity." donald trump never mentions any of the founders who believed that or any of the so-called scholars who believe it. 15 distinguished historians submitted a brief to the supreme court arguing that the founders never intended for the president to be immune from criminal prosecution. in their 34-page brief the historians say, "there is no evidence in the extensive historical record that any of the framers believed a former president should be immune from criminal prosecution. immunity for the crimes here alleged would be most abhorrent to the framers because immunity would upset the constitutional scheme and aid a president in

overriding the people's power over him. the framers would also have been appalled that former president trump despite having left office seeks permanent immunity." andrew weissman is back with us. the one thing you didn't want if you're the trump lawyers going into the supreme court tomorrow is another indictment tonight describing a criminal conspiracy where donald trump is unindicted co-conspirator one and who knows, could at some point be indicted, but you've written and published questions for the supreme court tomorrow. i just want to go straight to question number eight that you wrote before this indictment came out and it says, "how would organizing alternative electors in coordination with the chair of a major political party involve official acts of a president?" that sounds like a good place

to begin tomorrow, andrew. >> it does. i wrote this with professor goodman at nyu, wonderful, brilliant man. so he should really take the lion's share of credit for this, but we divided it into two buckets. the one that you read relates to the substance and let's just get real. there is no substance to the claim here. if the supreme court were to decide that a president has absolute immunity, we can all pack up and go home. we will not live in a democracy. we may have the illusion we're in a democracy, but we will not be in one. i do not see that happening. the main issue tomorrow is timing. it is all about the fact that there is a stay in place right now that the supreme court has the ability to lift tomorrow. they can hear argument and they're capable of saying you know what? opinion to follow, but we're lifting the stay so the district court can go on her

business. there's every reason to do that because one of the questions we ask is to pose to donald trump's lawyers the following. you say that you are immune from criminal prosecution and you say that this criminal prosecution is something that is onerous, something you shouldn't be laboring under. you say the gag order in this case is hurting you in terms of your speech and running for office. so don't you have every interest in having us decide this case quickly? what possible reason, legitimate reason, do you have for us to delay a ruling on this case? because there really is no good answer to that question. because i think there's no way that you'll have five justices say that there is immunity in this case for these charges, there's no reason for the stay to continue one day longer. the stay in effect is giving

donald trump the immunity he seeks even if the supreme court later says presidents are not immune, it's the stay that is actually resulting in this president being immune. >> because it is the stay that is actually delaying the trial in the case and as long as that stay this is place, the trial is frozen and delayed. i want to go to another question you have here that i'm really hoping to hear in the supreme court tomorrow. it's so great. i never would have thought of this. it's number ten. it says, "if richard nixon had ordered the fbi instead of the so-called plumbers to break into daniel ellsberg's psychiatrist's office, would nixon have been immune from prosecution?" the nixon plumbers were not official government operators at the time they were committing these crimes. the trump theory of the case is anything the president does in his official capacity cannot possibly be a crime.

so that's why you say basically they're saying if nixon had ordered the fbi to do it and the fbi did it, there would have been no crime. >> absolutely. i mean it's so preposterous what he's saying. the other questions we have are just essentially doing a good gander. so if what you're saying is true, then joseph biden could decide if you would be entitled to order the assassination of a political rival, are you saying he can order an assassination of a political rival? if you could seize election machines because you think there's fraud in the election, aren't you saying he can do it? i mean this is one where it's even justices alito and thomas footnote the outrageous fact that thomas is going to sit on this case tomorrow and hear it. leave that aside. even they i think cannot, will not stomach the idea of a

blanket immunity. they may decide that there's some small area which maybe a president is immune, for instance, foreign relations, something that's exclusively or almost exclusively within his province, but it's hard to see that it would be in this case with these charges. >> andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining us. we'll listen to the court tomorrow. a programming note, andrew weissmann will join us in studio tomorrow at this hour after we've all heard the oral arguments at the supreme court. msnbc's coverage of the arguments start at 10:00 a.m. eastern time tomorrow and tomorrow night i'll join rachel maddow for a special prime time coverage of the supreme court hearing starting at 8:00 p.m. that will go on for two hours before "the last word" comes on at 10:00 p.m. tomorrow night, as usually scheduled. coming up, today president joe biden got an early

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big endorsement from a very big group of unions, the construction workers of north america's building trades unions. >> folks, when i think climate, i think jobs. i think union jobs, good paying jobs that don't require a college degree. we've attracted nearly $700 billion in private sector investment in advanced manufacturing and semiconductors, clean energy and so much more here in america, creating tens of thousands of good paying jobs, building trade jobs. in fact, construction of new factories has more than doubled in our administration. meanwhile donald trump still thinks windmills cause cancer. that's what he said. by the way, remember when he was trying to deal with covid, he said just inject a little

bleach in your veins. . he missed. it all went to his hair. i got to be careful. he promised infrastructure week. tell you what. took four years. he never built a thing, nothing. i'm serious. nothing. i'm serious. are you surprised? you're the best in the world. you know you had my back in 2020 and because of you, i'm standing here as president of the united states of america because of you. that's a fact. because of you, in 2024 we're going to make donald trump a loser again. >> in a statement in north america's building trades union says, "north american's building trades union can honestly say no elected

official has shown our members and their families more respect than president joe biden. through his policies and his personnel, president biden has demonstrated his laser-like focus on not only rebuilding our nation's infrastructure and manufacturing sector, but rebuilding the american middle class itself," and in a newly released ad the union's president shawn mcgarvey explains why the union opposes donald trump. >> you are promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. >> donald trump, he's not a good man. he's not a good person. he does not care about anybody in this world except donald trump. that's it. that's all. now he's looking to get in that position again to exert revenge on people. i go all the way back to the '80s with donald trump and him

trying to, you know, get his mug on page six of the "new york post." the only difference between the donald trump of the '80s and the donald trump of today is he feels totally free to let his dark side out and his dark side is very, very dark and very, very dangerous for this country. we can't let our democracy that we worked for and cherished disintegrate with the wrong leader at the wrong time. i can tell you that he personally committed to me that he was going to get our pensions fixed. he understood who was affected by these pensions. he assured me, i'm the president of the united states. i'll just call mitch. i'll tell him to put it in the bill. is everybody going to love me? everybody loves me, right? is everybody going to love me? yes, mr. president. you fix the pension. everybody is going to love you. that was wasted breath. there was lots of other things put in that bill. there was tax cuts put in that bill for rich people.

donald trump promised infrastructure every year. >> infrastructure is the easiest of all. >> donald trump was not interested in any of the policy that actually goes along with being president of the united states. trump was interested in the pomp and circumstance, the plane, the helicopter. it's all about him. donald trump is incapable of running anything, let alone the most powerful country in the history of the world. god help us if he gets anywhere near that white house in the future. >> joining us now, jimmy williams jr., general president of the international union of painters and allied trades, an affiliate of the north america's building trades unions. thank you very much for joining us tonight. you were there today. you had four years of donald trump with no infrastructure whatsoever. joe biden gets in, delivers on the infrastructure bill. i can't think of anything more important to your unions than

that work that comes through that infrastructure bill. >> thank you so much for having me. it's not just the infrastructure bill that president biden and the biden/harris administration has done for the working people. you heard from our president, president mcgarvey, talk about the pension relief, too. that is truly something that was life changing for thousands and thousands of union workers in this country and there was also the chips and science bill and the ira that are creating jobs currently right now, good, good middle class jobs for working people. >> i want to go back to the pensions bill a moment because we saw president biden in florida the other day and spontaneously he was walking by someone and the guy said to him, "you saved my pension. you saved my pension." explain the challenge that people working in these unions had with their pensions that

needed to be solved. >> lawrence, first off, president trump did nothing to save his pension. president biden did, number one. number two, working for people and the pension system has been exposed by corporate greed. in 2008 the crash of our economy impacted millions of working people's pensions and the relief that was given to union members and their pensions during the biden/harris administration, it literally saved and changed lives. we have a pension fund in our own union that was based in southern california that needed relief. we had workers, workers, not corporate owners, not ceos, get bailed out in the american rescue plan and get 15 years of missed pension payments paid back to them. that's what it looks like to build an economy through the middle class and not from the

top down. >> do the workers know who did that? >> listen, that is the whole reason that our unions came together and endorsed president biden today and we have a duty to tell our members the truth and that is what we're doing. we've started now and we're going to continue through election day to tell our members the truth because donald trump lied to them. when he promised infrastructure week, it never happened. when he promised to help bail out workers' pensions, it never happened, but under a biden/harris administration, it did. >> jimmy williams jr., thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. we'll be right back. fromd by a hve problem,... ...we're going for a better treatment than warfarin. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk. and has less major bleeding.

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