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welcome back to the weekend. alicia menendez and michael steele . week 14 of the election interference trial wrapped up with a new star witness and some devastating bombshells. the former communications director spent many hours on the stand and went into details about how they have managed these scandals that plagued the trump campaign. joining us mal, katie phang, and susanne craig. i saw you fact checking. newly you can tell that phang was still working.

katie, this was a big week in this trial. keith davidson, how did you see this week ending up from the way that it began? i do not think that a lot of people knew the impact that hope hicks would have, so close to trump that there would be this protective veneer and she threw down some information that i think really helped the prosecution's case, how do you see this case? >> this week was a mixed bag, all good for the prosecution. there are a lot of us that are looking for the marquis maine witnesses. the custodian of records, these people, if you don't have them,

you don't have text that were read to the jury, you do not get video recordings. juries are visual creatures. this is how you keep them engaged. to end with hope hicks is perfect. it was great for the prosecution and hope hicks, she knew exactly who he was, if you did not know and she saw who donald trump was, she should've gotten out. she did not, she came back for more, let's be clear. you know, having that level of emotion going into her testimony made her more credible. i put on twitter today that she still put lipstick on a pig, it is not like she was all in with the testimony.

she made it clear that donald trump ran it all. the idea that he was not controlling what was going on -- i'm not allowed to say this. >> the thing that everyone should take away from this week, it is the most reminiscent of what a trial actually feels like. really exciting moments, some things that come out from evidence, there are also some mundane moments as well and that is the cadence of the trial. we have settled into that with a trial that we have not seen. many are going to take the glasses off. >> question for you, i want to talk about keith davidson. this entire trial is shrouded in people with lots of different credibility issues. you are talking about a former

president and a playmate. all sorts of things. keith davidson is not someone who is a clean-cut character when you talk about somebody who had previously gotten into some trouble for trying to extort hope hogan. he provided the most contentious testimony on the stand in terms of back-and- forth this week. do you think that his background in terms of him being a little bit of a shady character hurts the prosecution? everybody here, michael cohen on down, it does not matter. >> pigs don't marry giraffes. it's a concept. the reason why is that everyone has unclean hands. from the top down. when you prosecute mobsters,

you have people that go and knock the knees and put the heads of the horses in places and people are directing them to do it, they all have unclean hands, one of the things that was fleeting in opening, in jury selection, he talked about accessory liability. the legal concept of principles, everybody, when they go to rob the bank, from the getaway car, we are all equally liable. donald trump may not have actually signed the check. stormy, i will pay you off, the fact that he was involved and keith davidson was involved leans into the concept that this was a group of people that did this. they kept it tight. >> i was really interested in the cross-examination of keith

davidson. i think they should have established that they did not know donald trump. they were trying to sully him up and it had nothing to do with what his interactions were with the two women in the contracts. i was surprised a little bit that they went as far as they did. he is a scoundrel, we know that. we knew that without all of the sideshows that we got. i think they went too far. >> as an attorney, you have to throw whatever you can at the wall and hope that something sticks. >> some of the pieces of this that might seem less interesting are about closings and having all of your ducks in a row when you get to closing. look at the majority sitting there. a lot of it is the way that they feel about what it is that they are watching. as a reporter sitting in that room that you are our eyes and ears, at the end of this long week, what does that look like to you?

>> there has been a lot of discussion about the big names that we are on. david pecker very strong. keith davidson and hope hicks. as a reporter, there were reporter moments that stood out. this is a trial that involves a lot of dealings with the media. the national enquirer, the wall street journal or the washington post. there were some moments, one in particular, i dealt with trump and hope hicks over the campaign. over the last eight years as a reporter covering him, that moment when david from the washington post sent over an email at 1:29 in the afternoon, that moment. weeks before the election and he has the access hollywood tape and is asking for comment and he says that there is vulgar language in here and he puts the transcript below and hope hicks's instinct, she

denied, deny, deny, deny, the first instinct is to live. that is the campaign that i know. not only was donald trump involved in every aspect, hope hicks was taking notes and learning from him. they live. that is their first instinct. to see an email like that without even running it down, i want to make sure that i get everything right, i get mad if there is a spelling mistake. you know it, but to see it, the other moment that made me laugh was when hope hicks on friday talked about this moment where she overheard a call between david pecker and donald trump and she was walking out of meetings and could hear both sides of the conversation and

he was talking about the ben carson story that he had come up with and sent over and they had embellished it and it was about ben carson having left a sponge in a patients brain. and donald trump said, you should get a pulitzer for that. it was a horrifying moment, it is important to the case, this is why we heard it. it establishes the relationship between david pecker and donald trump. now you are hearing it in another witness. >> what do you make of hope hicks talking about michael cohen inserting himself and wanting to be more relevant in trump world then maybe he is.

he was not supposed to be on the campaign in any official capacity. there were things that he did in a volatile capacity because of his interest. how did you read that? there was a sense of trying to diminish the impact of what he might say in his testimony. there is a recognition not yeah, because he was so integrated into the way he projected, there is something where he was asked to do certain things for donald trump. >> i think what his lawyers will try and tell us is that michael cohen was a rogue actor and made this payment. >> he just took $130,000 out of his bank account? >> you have hope hicks saying that this person is not particularly generous or

charitable. >> exactly. the contrast we see with the evidence. i wanted to get your impressions on and how damaging you think this is. it came out this week that there is a january 10th note from the wall street journal that michael cohen provided around stormy daniels saying that we had no sexual relationship. the semantics seem to be contradictory. they were on center stage this week. your thoughts on how this ultimately played out, for members of the jury or did he even strike you as having an impact? >> this is part of the deny, deny, deny, let's break that down, it was a romantic sexual relationship and the witness that spoke to that was keith

davidson, he put out a statement saying that there was no romantic relationship and he was asked about that, how truthful was that? there was no sexual or romantic -- there was no sexual relationship and it was not romantic they just had sex and once they laid out the component pieces, there are denials. the wall street journal reporters were aware of that denial, denial, denial. i have dealt with his finances whenever we would have his taxes, they would say, we don't have them. they would say, we are wrong and they would send over statements. he is talking about property tax, those are the kinds of things that you deal with with these guys, your goal at the

end of it, we are getting a statement from the white house saying that what we have is wrong and we are getting all of this denial stuff, it sends us back to do more work. it can be successful and it is ridiculous. i'm glad it is being laid bare in court. some of it will go directly to the end in closing statements and some of the stuff will play in. the juries, their heads are spinning thinking wow, this is how it was running. >> whitewater-ish. there you go. >> katie, stick around. stick around. stick around. there is more that we have to discuss. judge merchan fact checking right there in the courthouse, in the courtroom, donald trump, this is the weekend. weekend. but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc.

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donald trump's words are finally catching up with him. he paid the $9000 contempt fine or multiple gag order violations in the new trial. judge merchan will rule next week on potential violations and during a hearing on thursday, he warned trump that he could be jailed for further infractions. katie phang and susanne craig.

it is very rich to see the system pressing up against this guy. the frustration for a lot of folks was beginning to feel or believe that might not be the case. that they would not impose the full weight on him as normal folks out here would feel. how did you see him in the courtroom in those moments when the judge is like, all right, little boy. you will get in trouble if you keep running your mouth. >> $9000 is not a lot, that maximum none is allowed. the moment this week that was the most incredible exchange between donald trump and the judge, donald trump going to sit outside the courtroom and said that because of the gag order, he will not be allowed to testify. everyone was like, what? the judge is not letting me go to my son's graduation. not that that came up. this one instance where he was

going on about this and then the next morning, a monday later, the judge said, i have a matter that i would like to start off with this morning. he completely deadpanned zen says, it has come to my attention that there is a belief out there that what is going on with the gag orders against donald trump cannot testify. that is not true. he went through this whole thing, he has a right to testify. he did it so smoothly and calmly. let's bring the jury in. >> you see how he is manipulating the narrative right? donald trump is not going to testify. he is now creating this space where his people think that they will not let him testify. come on. that is ridiculous. >> i've always been an advocate for cameras in the courtroom.

that is the moment that a camera in the courtroom will show those in america and elsewhere that the judge is explaining the law. the distortion of the law that trump uses in his rallies is a distortion of the law. >> even if we did not have a camera in there, at least if we could have the audio recording because it is maddening that they don't. public interest in this is huge. the complaint from so many people, we have to rely on a fifth person, let's hear it. >> we still have some gag orders to be dealt with. what do you expect it is going to take for donald trump -- do you think he has gotten the message? if we can get to the point where we will see the judge actually decide to hold him in

contempt to the point that he makes good on his promise? >> lest we forget, donald trump was tagged with how big of a verdict in the defamation cases? it was because he defamed somebody because he could not keep his mouth shut. that is historically his problem. i am the very noisy in the corner camp, you do not want to disrupt the proceedings. i am the noisy one in the corner saying, why is he getting special treatment? any other defendants, any of us would be charged with 34 felonies, we would be in jail by now. if you start tallying up, 14 violations of a gag order. it is a court order and it is called criminal contempt and it might not be a charge or a crime in itself but if you violate a court order, you should be sanctioned and the discretion afforded to judge

merchan is a $1000 fine or jail or a combo both. i have said this, put him in the pokey. put him in that room in the back where he is sitting in the back, in jail, let them sit there, for a while. is the secret service worried that someone will come through the concrete walls and hurt him? let him sit there and be removed. i'm tired of people saying, it will be more inflammatory rhetoric for his campaign. i understand, charles and i know this, we have respect for the judiciary and what they have to do. why not actually have what i think is a completely neutral application of the law? >> there was a moment in hope hicks testimony that was less interesting as in the case and

more interesting as a political moment. when you go to the release of the access hollywood tape, there is a brief moment where republicans came together to condemn, they had heard it and it felt like we were living in an alternate universe where they still had the wherewithal to come forward and it reminds us of the fact that we did not start there. that moment in some ways is what solidified his hold on the party. they came to understand there was nothing that could take them out. >> that is actually a very important moment, that last october where this all hit and the political leadership inside the party did the right thing. in any other circumstances, they would gather and go, we cannot do this, they will prepare to move. he would not want to come out

and publicly say anything and be tagged in this story around the access hollywood tape. the party chairman was panicking and pushing trump to stand down and then there was a moment him where it all stopped. that moment came when donald trump pushed back up against dan said, i will not stand down and began to speak on that. everyone in that moment got in line. all of the voices dissipated into nothingness. he made it very clear that i am going to continuing this race. you see a little bit of that playing here with some of this stuff. your point about the secret service and the entrapments. i've seen barack obama pull up at a restaurant in washington, d.c. he has half the entourage

with him. the presidential entrapment, donald trump has a way of manipulating that. the important piece is the force of his personality to say, this is what i want and this is what i am going to do. we saw what he did to the gop and we will see him try and do that to the courts. in the courtroom, what is the vibe when you see him at the table nodding off? what is a vibe when you see his defense backed into a corner because he has run his mouth and the judge is reprimanding him? is that a clarifying moment for trump? how does that play out inside the room? >> i'm processing in terms of what does it mean? on a couple different levels. he has his eyes closed, you can see him nodding off and he is closing his eyes and part of that is that he is trying to moderate his behavior. he knows if he says something, he has had one incident where

during jury selection, he was huffing and puffing in front of the jury and he got whacked by the judge for that. the judge, merchan's line on the go to jail card is the jury. he has his eyes closed for whatever reason he is doing now for, that could be part of what i just said. he has a jury looking at him and his eyes are closed and they have to be processing that in their own way and thinking that this is nuts. when you are in the jury box you're always looking at the defendant. the defendant is a former u.s. president. i think that is interesting. his behavior in the courtroom has been flat. he goes out and you will talk to the mic and when he is in the courtroom, that is by design, there is a line that

merchan has as the judge and if he crosses it, there will be consequences. >> smack that hand. you continue to do you. you got it. you do you. we love you. katie phang, always a pleasure, thank you for being here. still ahead, one of president biden's top campaign lieutenants, trumps revealing interview in time magazine. mag

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try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. welcome back. this week trump escalated his attacks against judge juan merchan on his campaign events

and did so on friday again after being punished for violating his gag order. which does not cover merchan himself. judge merchan has been the target of threats because of his dealings with trump. >> here we are, here we are again. >> i have nothing. it is rinse and repeat at this point with this guy. i do not get it. >> i want to zoom out for a quick second. with donald trump attacking judge merchan, when is serving as a representative of a democratic institution. also attacking the institution of voting and democratic processes. what is the threat, the real threat that americans confidence in these institutions gets lower and lower and lower? >> you answered your own question. that is the threat. >> yeah. i don't know.

i don't want to bring everything back to race, i will at this particular instance. you look at how communities go through the judicial system, and yet, that concern about how they are treated and how they are processed through it. then you look at what you see with donald trump. it is troubling to me to know that if a young african- american male defendant works -- to threaten the judge and walk out of a court proceeding and stand in the hallways of the court and call the judge out, that is the about-face back into the jail. right? >> absolutely. >> it is real frustrating for a lot of folks to watch trump hold court in the halls of the

court house. it bothers me that merchan exempted himself. i do not understand why. i get this humility about all of this. the reality of it is that you have now allowed yourself to be a target and there are idiots out there who at some point, particularly as this thing gets deeper to the case, could react and respond. she was threatened and now that individual is being prosecuted. how do we deal with that, charles? you walk through those calls and as a prosecutor, having this defendant out here in your case, trashing the judge, what do you think about that? >> i think about this, i think about the lack of confidence that voters and citizens

continue to talk about with concern to the supreme court, as the lawyer here, i wonder, how do you verse this? the rhetoric that donald trump is pushing so hard on, it creates strange bedfellows for communities of color and black people, there are several reasons why there is a distrust in these processes. now because of his rhetoric there is a level of distrust in these processes. i'm not sure where you reconcile these to increase or restore this type of confidence to the institutions that is necessary for them to function the way they are supposed to. >> i agree with that completely. we are in a troubling space for art judicial system. we discussed the 2025 project. >> that is scary. >> we have the deputy manager

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it wipes cleanly, plus is safe for use around people and pets. gotcha! zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. tomorrow marks six months until election day. a split screen between president biden and donald trump, it gets more striking. yesterday as president biden honored 19 distinguished americans with the medal of freedom, donald trump was in the new york war room facing charges for trying to interfere with the election. the split screen is front and center. joining us is quentin fulks, the campaign manager of biden harris 2024. i want you play one of these ads, we will talk about it on the other side.

>> i am a marine, i served in iraq and afghanistan, a man like donald trump that attacks women and takes away their freedom and brags about it, that is not tough. if you want to take freedoms away from my three daughters, you'll have to come through me first. i'm with joe biden. he will give my daughters their freedom back. >> the narrator there is a vet at a time when you know you have to be motivating these men. >> we are expanding the argument. we are coming at it from a different angle. have seen the ads that we have done with testimonials from women who have been facing the consequences of these national abortion bands that donald trump has put into place.

this is a different angle. it shows the sort of willingness for fathers to stand up and fight for their daughters. when i was on the show last time, i talked about expanding these arguments and making a broader and more real, that is what this ad does. >> as you are expanding the argument, we have news from nbc news that the campaign is trying to shorten speeches, less is more. shorter and crisper speeches. i think that is a very smart idea. for everyone. i appreciate that approach. it is a way for the president to hit with clarity and stick his points and move on and not get lost toes about the scene setting around their and trying to reimagine the campaign going forward with what you just said. this idea of the president tightening his grip on the

speeches. >> our campaign believes in quality over quantity. these touches and smaller things getting directly to the point of what is going on in this election are going to be easier for voters to tap into and also to go out and say and talk to their friends and family about what is at stake. those are some simple things that we can say. donald trump is responsible for the fact that one in three women are living in an abortion ban. we have to remove the clutter. voters are tuning in. donald trump wants to be a dictator on day one and he is saying that he is proud and most people like that. we have to remove the clutter and get to the message to make it easier for voters to follow to go out and communicating that is what we are doing in our field offices around the country. that is what we will continue to do with our principles. >> one of the things that is happening now, donald trump is

leaning into the idea that the different protest that we are seeing across campuses are going to be the problem child for the biden campaign. can you speak to that? we know that the president has addressed the notion of peaceful protest and talked about that. do you think that is something that will gain traction, the idea that this could be the achilles' heel for the biden campaign? >> it is rich considering someone who dropped out of the primary is getting 2000 votes in a state that was decided by 7000 right thousand votes. when it comes to this issue, it is important to call out that the president has said, as you said, he believes in the right for preschool protest. anti-semitism and violence will not be accepted. the other piece here is that the president believes in what these protesters are saying and he is working to bring peace to the middle east and bring this

situation to a close. we will continue to do that. this issue is a very sensitive issue for a lot of people around the country and we will be respect to that and tell them that they have the right to peacefully protest and that we respect their right to protest. this is an issue that we will continue to let play out. the president is working diligently every day to bring it to a close and we will communicate with voters and this is exactly what donald trump has don and this is what he will bring to a second term. >> i want to deal with a sticky part for this campaign. i'm curious as to how your team is looking at addressing ahead on as soon as possible. trump is setting up narratives about this upcoming election, setting up narratives that we see in the courthouse that says, he will not speak, that is gagging his ability to testify.

this translates politically on the street. how is the campaign prepared to make it clear to the american people, we have the safest most secure elections in the world, we have people working on the ground across the country to make sure that your vote is protected. if donald trump loses it is because joe biden legitimately beat him. >> look, first of all, i do not agree with the idea that americans believe donald trump on that front. we are building out of the access program making sure that every voter that is registered to vote across this country and goes out to vote will be able to do that safely, securely, and free of misinformation about their right to vote. the second piece is that we will continue to take the contrast directly to trump.

american voters can see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears will donald trump is spending his time defending and it is not them. when we are talking about the things that we are fighting for and that we believe in. we have to get to that point first. our campaign is in a posture of making sure that we are able to communicate the message and contrast. november is a long way out, we have a lot of work to do. this campaign will be in a position to defend voters on election day if that's what it takes. >> quentin fulks, we appreciate you, thanks for coming on. i wrote all about the republican circus on capitol hill, we have seen it play out real time with marjorie taylor green and all of the craziness going on there. fridays edition of the msnbc newsletter. you can subscribe now for free. you are sitting there drinking your coffee, did he say free?

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for the past four years, this is all the public and voters have heard from donald trump. take a listen. >> i will secure our elections, our goal will be one day, think of this, one day voting with paper ballots and voter i.d. we have to get rid of mail-in ballots. then we have quick elections. >> now donald trump is saying something different. check out this new true social post. election day voting are all good options. republicans must make a plan, register and vote. michael, i really have to turn to you, what is this? it seems extremely rich, brother. >> it is so rich. i don't even know where to begin with this. i will put it this way, the success that the party had under my leadership came from

the same thing, what donald trump told us not to do in 2020. the early absentee ballot voting, vote by mail, those are tools available to the political party. they have lost elections because they listened to the man who knows nothing about elections and demonizes the very tools that the elderly have to use because they cannot leave their homes. they mail their ballots in. the elderly make up a significant portion of the vote for republicans in key states, you have to capture them. he is trying to get the base to go, by the way, do all these things that the democrats have been doing to beat us. do we believe donald trump from 2020 that the system is rigged and it leads to corruption which a lot of people believe

it does you realize in key battleground states they will outperform you because they will turn out using those tools. >> i love that argument. that flex. >> did i say that out loud? >> the issue that i have with this, for someone who lost the popular vote, this notion of turnout is not a successful strategy. the point of him not understanding how elections work, is this is been a wise idea is this a winning play for him? >> the reality that he has to rebrand and get the people in the party to rethink what he said in 2020, that sunk in the lot deeper than trump realizes. >> more of the weekend up ahead, to 10 for a special

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well, that does it for this weekend, this saturday morning. our thanks to our good friend charles coleman for being in the house, joining us at the table this hour. we will see you back here tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. eastern. congressman jim clyburn will be here to discuss receiving the presidential medal of freedom. be sure to follow the show on social media. in the meantime, you know what is about to happen. yes, it is that time. "velshi" starts right now. take it away, ali, from the far, far lands of the west. may 4 be with you. >> thank you. it is nice to see charles with you. he always brings that walked off a magazine look. >> a big deal.