well, that does it for this weekend, this saturday morning. our thanks to our good friend charles coleman for being in the house, joining us at the table this hour. we will see you back here tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. eastern. congressman jim clyburn will be here to discuss receiving the presidential medal of freedom. be sure to follow the show on social media. in the meantime, you know what is about to happen. yes, it is that time. "velshi" starts right now. take it away, ali, from the far, far lands of the west. may 4 be with you. >> thank you. it is nice to see charles with you. he always brings that walked off a magazine look. >> a big deal.

>> i see it. so i tried to live up to that this morning because i knew i would be on the same screen as you. you are all wonderful, have yourselves a great day and i will see you tomorrow. thanks for joining us. today on "velshi", inside donald trump strategy as defendant/candidate and why his inclination to over share his plans is more alarming than you think. plus, movement on multiple fronts on the draconian crackdown on abortion in this country and worrying signs of what is coming next. then, why one columbia lecturer says the school is teaching the wrong lessons. we will talk about protests and rates on college campuses. ended his a book so beloved by audiences that it spent eight years on the bestseller list. it is a beautiful story of resilience and survival, yet it has been targeted and beyond over and over again. the acclaimed author joins our

book club to talk about her memoir, the last castle. "velshi" starts now. good morning to you, it is saturday, may 4. week three has officially wrapped in the first criminal trial of donald trump. the republican party's twice impeached, four times indicted, presumptive presidential nominee. he is a former president, the first one to find himself facing criminal charges and the possibility of spending time in jail. even though he is in this position right now, he continues to be the very same, abrasive man he has always been. someone who thinks that the rules don't apply to him. on tuesday, the judge presiding over his criminal trial, judge merchan, ruled that trump violated his gag order nine times so far. he ordered the former president to pay a total fine of $9000

and warned that if necessary he would impose, quote, and incarcerate tory punishment. trump could face more consequences next week because in addition to that ruling a hearing was held this week regarding a second set of apparent violations of the gag order. trumps cavalier attitude where the law was evident outside the courtroom as well. on wednesday the former president held rallies in the battleground states of wisconsin and michigan, the first he has held since his trial began in mid april. in his speeches he called judge merchan, quote, crooked and repeated is baseless allegations that president biden weaponized the justice system against him. while in wisconsin he also gave an eyebrow raising interview with the milwaukee journal sentinel in which he refused to commit to accepting the results of the upcoming election. quote, if everything's honest, i'd gladly accept the results. if it's not, you have to fight

for the right of the country. it is the same kind of noncommittal answer he gave leading up to the 2020 election and we know how that turned out. four years later he continued to lie about the outcome of the election in wisconsin, despite the fact that multiple reviews have confirmed the legitimate results. wisconsin's results of been confirmed by recounts in dane and milwaukee county that trump paid for. court rulings, a state audit and study by the conservative legal firm, wisconsin institute of law and liberty, among other analysis. end quote. in addition, time magazine published a must-read interview this week previewing the policies and actions he would implement in a possible second term. the profile highlights his radical plan to expand the powers of the presidency in order to bypass bureaucratic red tape and other safeguards that could prevent him from enacting some of his most divisive and draconian plans. those plans include building

migrant detention camps and applying the military at the border and inland. he also says he would be willing to fire a u.s. attorney who is not willing to carry out his wishes, would -- which is a break to the independence granted to law enforcement. trump already tested the limits of that during his first term. he is also considering pardoning hundreds of supporters convicted for january 6 related crimes and he has pledged to activate the national guard at his discretion to help cities combat crime. contrary to what some might think, the former president is not that much of an anomaly in american politics. while he may be unmatched in narcissism, trumpism is not a novel idea. the movement is in line with the republicans party southern strategy, a long-term plan in response to the civil rights movement that sought to exploit racial anxieties. it is a plan that richard nixon leaned into for his political

campaigns and his presidency. you will remember he used the phrase, silent majority, to refer to the white southerners he was trying to court and his call to law and order was a dog whistle opposing the protests and marches, and in the 1960s and early 70s. ronald reagan capitalized on the same racial fears when he invoked the false and defamatory trope of the welfare queen, a term that depicted poor minorities, especially black women, into negative stereotypes. if any of that sounds familiar it is because trumpism picks up where they left off. it is something the former president acknowledged in his time interview, remarking that he believes there is, quote, a definite antiwhite feeling in this country, end quote. the southern strategy was an overwhelming success for republicans. it resulted in a major political realignment in america that saw white southerners shift to the gop to transform the south into a republican stronghold.

it may be an uncomfortable truth, but the gop succeeded because they tapped into an anti-liberal ideology that has always been a central part of american politics and that remains true, believe it or not, to this day. joining me now is robert kagan, a senior fellow at the foreign policy program at the brookings institute. they contribute in colonist -- contributing columnist at the washington post and the author of rebellion. thank you for being with us this morning. i gave a very brief rundown of the modern history of this, but you point out in your book that the anti-liberalism of trumps movement we are seeing now can be traced all the way back to the founding of the country and to the era of slavery. >> yeah and i don't want to ruin your narrative, but it used to be the democratic party that was the leading anti- liberal party in the country. certainly in the first decades when it was the slaveholding south and later under jim crow. when you think about what has

happened politically, it used to be that these anti-liberal forces were fairly evenly divided between the two parties. you had the white, southern, anti-liberal party and you had white protestants in the republican party. what has happened since the second world war, and it did not begin with reagan, it goes back further than that. it is precisely the sorting you are talking about. basically the republican party became the gathering of all anti-liberal forces in america. so even though those forces are a minority in our country, they have the whip head in the republican party today which is really a novel situation. >> what is the root of the anti- liberalism? fundamentally most of us learn that this country was founded on liberal principles and those are the types of things written into the constitution, so why is this sentiment so strong and

pervasive in american history? >> the founders understood from the very beginning that even though they had established universal principles, this idea that all human beings, including blacks at the time, they believe, enjoy these rights, yet we also had a system of slavery. so a significant portion of the country on racial issues and religious issues who basically resisted, from the beginning, the founders liberal principles. the principles in the declaration of independence. i think most liberals have this idea that over time people are educated, they live in a good society. maybe prosperity helps, et cetera. we are continually shocked to discover that these forces are still present, still very rural and -- 100 years after the civil war, the south was

practically in rebellion in the 1950s after brown v board of education. we thought it had all gone away, but as we see it is a very powerful force today, even now. >> and yet we keep getting surprised by it. in the beginning of your book you write that the institutions to safeguard liberal democratic government cannot survive when half the country does not believe in the core principles that undergird the american system of government. the presidential election of 2024, therefore, will not be the usual contest between republicans and democrats. it is a referendum on whether the liberal democracy out of the revolution could continue. robert, those are very high- stakes. i think they are important and i agree with you. do you think that the broad electorate perceives the selection the way you have articulated?

>> for a long time, i think like many of us, i thought republicans didn't really understand the threat that trump poses. i don't think that is true. he makes it clear the threat that he poses to our liberal democracy every single day, most recently in the time magazine interview, but in every other way as well. i think people know this is a real risk and the sad thing is, they are willing to take that risk. some of them actively do want to change our system. i think the core of the trump movement, which is white nationalist, white christian nationalist, they really do want a change in the system. a lot of other, what we used to call normal republicans, seem perfectly willing to go along with this and that gets to something that thomas jefferson worried about, that abraham lincoln wrote and give a speech about in 1838, which was to say that the american people have lost their commitment to these fundamental principles that

they fought for in the revolution and i think that tells us. they understand people are not necessarily always engaged in the fervor for liberalism and i think we are at one of those times where people have forgotten, especially white people, i would say, have forgotten how many of them used liberalism or their ancestors to get where they are today. people forget that irish americans were not regarded as white when they arrived in the united states in the 19th century and prejudice against italian-americans, et cetera. we've lost, too many americans i think have lost a sense of how important these values are. >> take us to school for a moment. i think this is clear to our audience, but conservative political ideology is not anti- liberal. we're talking about something else. draw me a line between being conservative in america today and being anti-liberal. >> it is an interesting

question, how much there is a line. i used to think there was a clear line. in theory a lot of conservatives over the years have portrayed themselves as being defenders of the founders liberalism. there conservative in trying to conserve those principles against the left or what have you. then there has also been a tradition of anti-liberal conservatives. it is a paradox. i think ronald reagan personally was what i would call a liberal conservative. he grew up as a big fan of fdr. he was a truman democrat. i think in his heart he was basically a defender of american liberalism, but he brought into the government with him a lot of anti-liberal forces, which then germinated and have become the movement that we see today. sometimes it is not so easy to make a clear dividing line. >> robert, good to talk to you. i know we just scratched the

surface of your important book, but we appreciate you joining us. robert kagan is a senior fellow at the brookings institution and a contributing columnist with the washington post. also the author of the new book, rebellion, how anti- liberalism is tearing america apart again. coming up, we continue the conversation about how donald trump is coping in the courtroom and on the campaign trail in the unprecedented situation america finds itself in, later in the show. plus, a crucial abortion case went before the supreme court last weekend flew below the radar. we don't know how the supreme court will rule, but the arguments alone give us plenty to be concerned about. and the band book club. on the agenda, the jeannette walls memoir, the glass castle, which spent years on the new york times bestsellers list. in, you are surrounded by people who are all younger than you. i had to get help somewhere along the line

to stay competitive. i discovered prevagen. i started taking it and after a period of time, my memory improved. it was a game-changer for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities it was a game-changer for me. and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures.

because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort. sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. bombas makes absurdly comfortable underwear. made to move with you, not on you. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

♪♪ sandals jamaica sale is now on! with rates from $199 per person per night. visit sandals.com or call 1-800-sandals

i don't want you to move. visit sandals.com i'm gonna miss you so much. you realize we'll have internet waiting for us at the new place, right? oh, we know. we just like making a scene. transferring your services has never been easier. get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. can i sleep over at your new place? can katie sleep over tonight? sure, honey! this generation is so dramatic! move with xfinity.

turning to the middle east where amid posturing there may be process -- may be progress in cease-fire negotiations. a high-level delegation is in cairo for talks, adding that they are traveling with, quote, a positive spirit, end quote. egypt has been leading efforts to mediate between israel and hamas and reports indicate that a multi phase deal is on the table and has been agreed to in principle. the proposal includes three phases. the first would last for 40 days and include ac's infighting, the release of remaining female hostages held in gaza, a release of palestinian prisoners held by israel, a withdrawal of troops from parts of gaza, and an increase in humanitarian aid allowed into gaza. the second phase would allow another season fighting and the

release of more hostages and prisoners. the final phase would include the return of the remains of deceased tossed is, the release of more palestinian prisoners and the start of a multiyear reconstruction plan in gaza. it comes as a senior official said as part of the deal they will demand a guarantee from intermediaries that israel won't resume fighting following the release of the remaining hostages. an israeli official told nbc news this morning that israel will not agree to end the war as part of an agreement to release our hostages, while vowing to go through with a long threatened incursion into the southern gaza city of rafah, quote, whether or not there will be a temporary pause. so there is a lot going on there, but there does seem to be some movement. we will continue to follow these developments and bring you the latest. up next, the supreme court is currently weighing whether states should be allowed to deny abortion care to women

facing severe, life altering medical complications, all in the name of protecting nonviable pregnancies. the great melissa murray will be here next to impact the latest chapter in the post road dystopia. ia. in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next. (vo) achieve enterprise intelligence. it's your vision, it's your verizon.

when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd, things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare—ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri.

♪ ♪ [sfx] water lapping. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [sfx] water splashing. ♪ ♪ [sfx] ambient / laughing. ♪ ♪

in 1986, congress passed a law called the emergency medical treatment and labor act. the law essentially says hospitals are required to treat patients and provide stabilizing care. the law was passed in part because at the time in the 1970s and 80s there was a growing pattern of hospitals and physicians turning patients away if they couldn't pay for their treatment and a number of those cases where pregnant women. and a number of those pregnant women were turned away near their due date because of complications with their unborn, viable fetus. so the emergency medical treatment act says doctors and

hospitals have an obligation to provide stabilizing care to protect the health and life of patients, including pregnant women, and the law says, including their unborn child. nearly 40 years later it is at the center of one of the latest fights about abortion and reproductive health. the supreme court heard oral arguments last week in a case in which the biden administration is arguing that the near-total abortion ban in idaho goes too far. that the abortion ban, which only allows a narrow exception to save the life of the woman, violates emtala because it does not allow exceptions for the health of the woman. in states like idaho that have total bans on abortion except to save the life of the woman, a woman could be denied, will be denied and abortion, even if she presents with serious medical risks that could result in severe lasting harm, but won't necessarily kill her, like sepsis or kidney failure or future fertility loss or the

removal of organs. so the biden administration is now pointing to this 40-year-old federal law to say that idaho goes too far. the hospitals do, in fact, need to provide care that will preserve not just the life, but the health of the mother. not just to prevent her imminent death. that of performing an abortion will stabilize a patient to prevent sepsis or a hysterectomy or other serious medical emergencies, and abortion should be allowed. we do not know how the supreme court will rule, but there is a lot that can be learned from the oral arguments. joining me now to help us understand what is at stake is melissa murray, law professor at nyu and cohost of the strict scrutiny pageau stand msnbc legal analyst. she was also a clerk for sonia sotomayor. good to see you. i would like if you could help take us through these oral arguments and i would like to start with an exchange between justice sotomayor yar and a

lawyer representing idaho. she is asking if the state is really saying that it would deny care to a woman who might lose organs if she does not get an abortion. let's listen. >> the point, which is they will present with a serious medical condition that doctors in good faith can't say will present death, but will present potential loss of life. potential loss of an organ or serious medical competition -- medical complications for the woman. >> if that hypothetical exists and i don't know of a condition that is so certain to result in the loss of an organ, but also so certain not to transpire with death. if that condition exists, yes,

idaho law does say that abortions in that case are not allowed. >> so, melissa, he is conceding that if that position exists, idaho law would not allow abortion. the state of idaho lawyer is talking about hypotheticals, but i don't know if these are hypotheticals. are they referencing real cases of women who experienced severe medical complications after being denied abortion care? >> these are real cases. one of the things is this idea that you have these laws in the abstract, but then you have medical treatment on the ground and there is some real daylight here. in a situation like this one where you have a federal law directing physicians to provide stabilizing emergency care, which in some cases might include abortion, and you have a state law saying you cannot provide an abortion except if death is imminent, then you have a real concern on the part of doctors. they are not going to provide this treatment and then be in violation of federal law unless it is clear the patient is

going to die and sometimes stabilizing treatment has to happen well in advance of imminent death in order to be truly stabilizing. one of the things that was raised by the solicitor general who represented the federal government in this case, was in just a few months since this law has gone into effect, six patients have been airlifted from idaho to other states where they have been able to get a stabilizing abortion. this is not hypothetical, it is not abstract, it is real patients lives and it is playing out now. >> you mentioned the solicitor general. i want to play the response she had, representing the biden administration in this. this is another point that she made. let's listen. >> the statute did nothing to displace the woman herself as an individual with an emergency medical condition when her life is in danger, when her health is in danger. that obligation equally runs to her and makes clear the hospital needs to get her stabilizing treatment. in many of the cases there is no possible way to stabilize the unborn child, because the

fetus is sufficiently before viability that it is inevitable that the pregnancy will be lost. even though it is senseless. >> i want to be clear, this is what you are talking about. she is saying that a lot of these cases, which are real- life cases and not hypotheticals, the fetus is not viable so what is happening is women are denied care that could preserve their health, but not because it would save an unborn child. >> that was with justice alito and he raised the fact that in emtala, in the law itself, -- it couldn't be the case that a statute that had the term, unborn child in it, was intended to allow ended -- allow and endorse abortion, stabilizing medical care. so the solicitor general is explaining a 1986 when this law was passed and there was a real concern that when pregnant patients presented at emergency

rooms and late stages of pregnancy, where they had a pregnancy that was no longer viable, but required stabilizing care and they didn't have the ability to pay, they would be sent elsewhere and that would have consequences for them and their health, as well as their unborn child. this isn't about two different interests at stake. the interest of the pregnant patient is also here and stabilizing treatment could be necessary for the unborn child, but it is just as necessary for the patient. she is not tertiary or subsidiary here. >> you mentioned the exchange with justice alito. i want you to help us understand more about this. the state is saying it's abortion ban does not violate emtala because the unborn child is enumerated as a patient or someone protected by this law, as well as the pregnant woman. so let's play a little of the sound you are referring to have justice alito spelling out his understanding of it. >> emtala is a reference to the

woman's, quote unquote, unborn child. isn't that an odd phrase to put in a statute that imposes a mandate to perform abortions? have you ever seen an abortion statute that uses the phrase, unborn child? so in that situation the hospital must stabilize the threat to the unborn child and it seems the plain meaning is that the hospital must try to eliminate any immediate threat to the child. performing an abortion is antithetical to that duty. >> so this is where the debate, in the hypothetical or in the back-and-forth, gets confusing, because we were talking about the solicitor general making a point where the baby is not viable. alito is saying, talking about an unborn baby that is viable. how do you answer his question? >> i think it is really important to understand that a big part of this is to

introduce the concept of fetal personhood. the idea that the fetus is imbued with statutory and constitutional rights that must be considered alongside the rights of the pregnant patient. what the solicitor general was responding do is that, yes, it may be the case in a nonviable pregnancy that you can't consider the fetus ahead of the patient. her life is in danger, her health is in danger and this pregnancy is no longer viable. that is very different from circumstances where you have a viable fetus and in most cases emtala says you have to provide stabilizing care to both patients, the unborn child and pregnant patient. again, in those circumstances where the stabilizing care for a nonviable pregnancy would be the termination of that pregnancy, emtala does require hospitals to provide it and idaho's law cannot conflict with that. >> melissa, thank you. that one is when the needed your brain to dig into and make us understand and i appreciate you being here. melissa murray is a professor of law at new york university and cohost of the strict

scrutiny podcast and msnbc legal analyst. still to come, florida is the latest state to implement a strict six week abortion ban, but one expert is warning it is only the beginning of a bigger push from the antiabortion movement. it is called the biggest student protest movement of the 21st century. i will talk about the growing protest movement on campuses and the crackdown that has followed. start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. (screams) bleeding gums are serious, jamie. dr. garcia?

woah. they're a sign of bacterial infection. crest gum detoxify's antibacterial fluoride works below the gumline to help heal gums and stop bleeding. crest saves the day. crest.

have you ever considered getting a walk-in tub? well, look no further! crest saves the day. safe step's best offer, just got better! now, when you purchase your brand new safe step walk-in tub, you'll receive a free shower package. yes, a free shower package! and if you call today, you'll also receive 15% off your entire order. now you can enjoy the best of both worlds! the therapeutic benefits of a warm, soothing bath that can help increase mobility, relieve pain, boost energy, and even improve sleep! or, if you prefer, you can take a refreshing shower. all-in-one product! call now to receive a free shower package plus 15% off your brand new safe step walk-in tub.

yesterday, 19 americans were awarded the presidential medal of freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor. one of the recipients was civil rights leader and world war ii veteran, medgar evers. he was posthumously honored by president biden for working tirelessly to end segregation.

the presidential medal of freedom is awarded to individuals who made a major contribution to the security or national interest of the united states, world peace, or cultural honors. medgar evers's daughter accepted the award and his widow said in a statement, to the world he was a civil rights leader. to me and our three children he was the world. he balanced his monumental public role with a dedication to his family like no other. the story of medgar evers is an incredible one and my colleague, joy reid, has written an excellent book about it. tonight you can watch a special conversation hosted by joy and rachel maddow at new york city's historic apollo theater. they discuss the best-selling book. medgar evers and the love story that awakened america.

and how the mission of the civil rights pioneers is now more urgent than ever. you can watch joy reid and rachel maddow live at the apollo tonight, 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streaming on peacock. we will be right back. ift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment.

i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. brett: once we got the first initial hit, it was just straight tears, sickness in your stomach, just don't want to get up out of bed. joe: there's always that saying, well,

you've got to look on the bright side of things. tell me what the bright side of childhood cancer is. lakesha: it's a long road. it's hard. but saint jude has gotten us through it. narrator: saint jude children's research hospital works day after day to find cures and save the lives of children with cancer and other life-threatening diseases. thanks to generous donors like you, families never receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food, so they can focus on helping their child live. ashley: without all of those donations, saint jude would not be able to do all of the exceptional work that they do. narrator: for just $19 a month, you'll help us continue the life-saving research and treatment these kids need. tiffany: no matter if it's a big business or just the grandmother that donates once a month, they are changing people's lives.

and that's a big deal. narrator: join with your debit or credit card right now, and we'll send you this saint jude t-shirt that you can proudly wear to show your support. nicole: our family is forever grateful for donations big and small because it's completely changed our lives and it's given us a second chance. elizabeth stewart: saint jude's not going to stop until every single kid gets that chance to walk out of the doors of this hospital cancer-free. narrator: please, don't wait. call, go online, or scan the qr code below right now. [♪ music playing ♪] history is repeating itself as antiwar protest sweep across campuses with columbia university once again emerging

as the epicenter of this groundswell. more than 2300 people have been arrested on campuses in the last two weeks, since april 17, according to the washington post. historically american universities have witnessed some of the biggest movements of social change, spanning from the anti-mccarthy demonstrations to civil rights and vietnam protests. the anti-apartheid campaigns of the 1980s and most recently the black lives matter movement. despite this history, each generation of education administrators seems to stumble in their response to student led protests. the police intervention during the 1968 columbia campus protest movement against the vietnam war often escalated peaceful protests into violent riots and campus shutdowns. at the height of the vietnam era protest movement, students rioted, clashed with police, barricaded themselves and burned buildings down. it culminated in the tragic

kent state massacre in 1970 when members of the ohio national guard opened fire on a crowd of unarmed student protesters, resulting in four deaths. notably today's protests, already called the largest student movement of the 21st century, have been met with unusually swift and extreme pushback in some cases. an indication that some schools are no longer starting with the presumption that protecting speech is a primary matter. far from being an unruly mob with no clear goals, today's campus protests have goals. they are calling for their schools to the vest from israeli companies. companies with ties to israel and manufacturers, particularly american ones, supplying weapons to israel in light of the occupation of palestinian territories and the current war in gaza. for instance, the group behind the protest that columbia university known as apartheid divest, has outlined five specific demands including the vestment and ending campus policing. some universities are beginning

to respond to student commands. at least four campuses of peacefully dismantled encampments after reaching agreements with administrators including rutgers university and brown university. universities foster robust debate, critical thinking and social innovation and have long served as hubs of social justice and political activism. reflecting on the university's role in the power of student activism in the 1980s, a columbia college senior wrote in a student publication, quote, by organizing and educating the columbia community, such activities lay the foundation for future mobilization against the relentless, often silent spread of militarism in this country. if a group of young, antiestablishment pacifists with unusual ideas and uncomfortable answers terrifies us more today, our terror says more about us. we have failed to comprehend the meaning of blind obedience to authority and have yet to

learn the democratic lesson that we have taught the germans. those words were published in 1983. the author was a columbia student by the name of barack obama, who went on to become the 44th president of the united states. after a quick break i will talk to the professors. don't go anywhere. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next. (vo) achieve enterprise intelligence. it's your vision, it's your verizon. with cascade platinum plus, i have upped my dish game auntie, in that dishwasher? watch me platinum plus gives you the highest standard of clean, even in your machine.

clean enough for you? yeah! scrape. load. done. cascade platinum plus. for people who feel limited by the unpredictability of generalized myasthenia gravis and who are anti-achr antibody positive, season to season, ultomiris is continuous symptom control, with improvement in activities of daily living. it is reduced muscle weakness. and ultomiris is the only long-acting gmg treatment with the freedom of just 6 to 7 infusions per year, for a predictable routine i can count on.

ultomiris can lower your immune system's ability to fight infections, increasing your chance of serious meningococcal infections, which may become life-threatening or fatal, and other types of infections. complete or update your meningococcal vaccines at least 2 weeks before starting ultomiris. if ultomiris is urgent, you should also receive antibiotics with your vaccines. before starting ultomiris, tell your doctor about all of your medical conditions and medications. ultomiris can cause reactions such as back pain, tiredness, dizziness, limb discomfort, or bad taste. ultomiris is moving forward with continuous symptom control. ask your neurologist about starting ultomiris. only purple's gel flex grid passes the raw egg test. ano other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close. get your best sleep guaranteed. save up to $800 during our memorial day sale. visit purple.com or a store near you

joining me now is eddie glaude, professor of african american studies at princeton university and the new york times best-selling author of we are the leaders we have been looking for. joining him, karen attiah, award-winning columnist and adjunct professor at columbia university. thank you for being with us. karen, let me start with you. your closest to this issue at columbia in particular. as always with student protests when you try to get the information on what is going on, depending on who you hear the information from, it can be very different. give me a sense of what we should be thinking about when we watch these protests that started at columbia and spread around the nation. >> thanks for asking this question. i think when we talk about the protests of the past, with the

60s and the 80s and comparing them to now, obviously as a member of the media and someone lecturing for the last half semester, what i have been paying attention to is the outside perception of the demands of the protests and i have been frankly dismayed. at the way that these demands, which at first were lawful, nonviolent. yes, there were some disturbing incidents, but largely the encampments i visited over the past couple of weeks were, as you said in your intro, students that were asking very specific demands of the university for the vestment. that being said, fast forward to now, we now have social media in which pictures, images, can be easily stripped of context. and to see people, frankly journalists, who should be

doing their jobs and coming to campus, speaking to students, seeing the scenes for themselves, relying on misinformation. relying on amped up rhetoric from politicians with their own agendas. oh, it has been educational. as someone who lectures on these things. one thing i do want to point out is that having been on campus, the increasing decisions to involve the nypd as a means of dealing with this problem can only serve to escalate and now we have a situation where not only students, but frankly faculty. columbia has now decided to have the nypd present until the end of the semester and given the nypd history of brutality, of treatment of particularly brown and black students, but also jewish students in this whole episode, you know, the

university has been saying we want safety to be the ultimate goal here. now, frankly, i don't think anybody feel safe. >> eddie, i think karen makes a good point that in all of this stuff, context gets lost. people identify with whatever they identify with and then tell you this is happening. what is the context we are missing, because you have been one of the clearest voices on how to understand student dissatisfaction and how it ties in with free-speech rights and protection and safety of students. >> i think we are in a moment of political entrenchment. we have to understand the political context. columbia's president responds and the way she does to the encampment right after appearing before congress for this witchhunt for following the lead of representatives the phonic. i want to suggest that what we

are seeing among administrators is a reflection of the political climate. that is one thing. the second is the issue around criticizing the policies. the execution of the war in gaza with israel carries with it claims of anti-semitism. there is this conflation of critiquing the war with claims people are being anti-semitic. of course there are those who are anti-semitic. before october 7 it tied to the conservative right. white nationalists and the like. we can make that parallel to the transition in 1968. as nixon is making his move. we can see it in the student strike in 1970, in response to the may 4 kent state university massacre. 13 students were shot, four were killed. so you have a massive walkout with college students as well as high school students and in new york, construction workers,

400 of them. 800 office workers. american flags shouting america, usa, america love it or leave it, attacked those 1000 demonstrators. the forgotten americans end up giving the white house to nixon again. i think it is important for us to understand the political forces driving this response and once we do that, maybe we can offer a much more complicated view of what is happening. let me say this quickly, the divestment movement on college campuses has been going on since i think the organization was started in 2005. so we have this convergence that we need to make sense of. >> the divestment movement has been discredited by some people is anti-semitic since day one. i have had this discussion with years for people who say it is an economic, nonviolent movement. not allowing that to have proceed may have taken a

release valve out from what we are seeing today. >> 1000% and these are conversations i've been having with people on campus and with students and with people on the sidelines of protests. i think that the movement -- also i think the difficulty of this particular issue when it comes to israel, palestinians. this is for so many a no go issue. something people are used to not wanting to speak about at all, so when i was on the sidelines of the protest even i was speaking -- it is also an inter generalization all -- also an intergenerational issue. they've been dealing with shooter drills, dealing with covid. this is a generation of students that have seen the previous generations of adults

fail them. when they talk about having to wake up to the brutal images coming out of gaza, that there is that anger and i think one thing to keep in mind is i think this is the release valve. this is decades of not being able to pursue nonviolent means, boycotts, divestments, even again, informally, not able to sort of speak very openly about this issue. now coming out in a way that, again, the encampments, the occupation, there is a long history of occupying buildings. hamilton hall itself has been occupied multiple times, while these are distractive, they have been effective tactics. so this, as professor eddie glaude said, a result of the political pressure and also the pressure coming up from the

next generation that again has just seen the adults fail them at every single time they have had to try to address what they see as an unfolding genocide, not only on their watch, but on their tuition dollars. >> eddie, it is interesting, though, because this is something you studied for a long time. people who otherwise are liberal have taken a somewhat nonliberal stance against protesters. >> silence equals complicity. people need their excuses to lurch to the right as they choose security and comfort over one of the moral questions of our time. so it is not simply the loud racists or loud anti-semites that are the problem. it is those of us who long for a sense of comfort in the status quo. often times their silence or even when they call for order, law and order in this instance, that actually contributes to the problem.

let's remember who doctor king was writing a letter to. he was not try to get to the , he was writing that letter to liberal, white preachers who were asking them to slow down. so yes, absolutely. this is the moral issue of our time for this generation. >> i could not have two better people to talk about it. thank you for joining us. eddie glaude is a professor in the department of african american studies at princeton university and a contributor and analyst and author of the new book, we are the leaders we have been looking for. karen attiah is a columnist with the washington post and adjunct lecturer at columbia university. thanks to both of you. coming up, donald trump on trial and the campaign trail. why he is dipping his plans for a second term as president. plus, why one more six-week abortion ban could have an outsized impact on the south and i would hints at more trouble to come. plus, jeannette walls joins me to discuss the glass castle, her important memoir of