little poor white trash story, if i can help someone who is in despair, doesn't see hope, then that is why we tell our stories. >> and, we know, we know from the response we've had from viewers that does help, the responses i'm getting right now on social media. jeannette walls, thank you for what you've done. the award-winning author of numerous books, including "hang the moon," and today's feature , "the glass castle". my new book "small acts of courage," comes out this tuesday, may 7th. i'm hitting a few cities to discuss it. the book tour comes out with my lunch in philadelphia on may 7th. i will be in washington, d.c. on may 8, alta moore on may 9th. i will end the week in new york city on may 10th. there will be more events across the country the week after. i will keep you posted on social media. i hope to see you there. that does it for me. thank you for watching. stay right where you are, the

katie phang show begins right now. >> i'm katie phang, live from msnbc world headquarters in new york and here's the week that was. overnight, ucla beginning its crackdown on the campus pro- palestinian in canada. police in riot gear moving in early this morning. a tensed drama at columbia university. nypd officers using a s.w.a.t. truck to enter hamilton hall by force. >> has to protest forced her to reconsider any of the policies in the region? >> no. >> lawmakers in arizona today repealing their states 1864 abortion ban while in florida, and strict new limits took effect. >> the biden administration looking to reclassify the drug to schedule three like ketamine or testosterone or terminal, which would allow marijuana to be more easily studied for medical benefits. >> next week, i will be calling

this motion to vacate. absolutely calling it. i can't wait to see democrats go out and support a republican speaker. >> former president trump hit with a fine at his house money trial. the judge finding multiple violations of the gag order prohibiting mr. trump from attacking witnesses. now threatening to throw him behind bars, saying jail may be a necessary punishment. >> one time top advisor to president trump, hope hicks testified for the prosecution. >> hope hicks did not testify she was engaged in negotiations or aware of the hush money payments before they were made. >> i would say that mr. trump was responsible. he knew what he wanted to say and how he wanted to say it and we were all following his lead." hope hicks testifying yesterday before a jury in donald trump's election interference trial explaining trump was involved in every aspect of his 2016 presidential campaign.

hope hicks admitting donald trump knew about the payment to stormy daniels and that it wasn't for legal services by michael coming. as for the weeping on the stand, sir francis bacon said it best. "it is the wisdom of the crocodiles that shed tears when they would devour." bombshell testimony unlike anything we have seen yet in donald trump's new york election interference trial. a microphone dropped moment from the prosecution to close out the third week. top former trump eight and campaign press secretary hope hicks on the witness stand revealing new insight into the late days of the 2016 campaign. notably detailing the aftermath of the access hollywood, calling it a massive story and a crisis, as well as an article on a hush money agreement between "the national enquirer" publisher and karen mcdougal. as for the stormy daniels

payment, hope hicks testified trump told her michael cohen had made them on his own to protect trump and did not want credit. hope hicks added, "i did not know michael to be and especially charitable or selfless person. he is the kind of person who seeks credit." join me to break it all down, former criminal division deputy chief and former federal prosecutor, kristy greenberg. thanks for being here. you and i tried so many cases in our careers, especially as prosecutors. the one thing jurors have as one of their biggest jobs is to determine the credibility of the witnesses. that's not the judges job, that is the jury. your thoughts about the credibility of somebody like hope hicks ? >> she started her testimony with a lot of compliments toward donald trump. he is a master at communications and at branding. that is why, as you said, we were following his lead here. when she actually was delivering testimony against

him, it made it all the more credible. she doesn't have an ax to grind. i would say the same with david pecker. he also said a lot of nice things about donald trump, he considered him a friend. when you are hearing from witnesses who have a close relationship or had a close relationship with the president, view them in a positive light when they say things that are hurtful to them and their case, it makes it that much more credible for the jury. >> what about what the defense is heralding as a victory, which was her saying michael cohen would often go rogue and that he made this payment purportedly or he as in michael cohen told donald trump he had made this payment to be selfless and to help him out? let's be frank, every time michael cohen has testified, there has been corroboration coming up for him in his testimony. whether you like him or not, michael cohen has said the truth and we've seen it in the documentation. is the jury able to pick up on the nuances on this? do you think they are able to glean that what hope hicks was saying yesterday was not true

in terms of what donald trump told her? >> she was pretty clear when she said that, when michael cohen gave her this story and even donald trump gave her the story that he just did this because he was being terrible. she didn't buy it. she said he's not a terrible person. he is someone who claims credit. i don't think that really was something, the jury has heard so much about michael coming from everybody, most of it being really negative. even though he hasn't taken the stand, they painted this picture of him as somebody who worked under the authority of donald trump. he could not make a move without clearing it by donald trump. i'm going to talk to the boss. i'm going to get his essay. the idea that now he's going rogue on something like this, that donald trump cared about. we heard from david pecker where david pecker was exciting that donald trump was so upset when he thought these stories were getting out about karen mcdougal and he wanted to

be on the phone right away. you see donald trump at the center of this. on the stormy daniels payment, for all of a sudden for donald trump to have no idea what is going on and michael cohen is handling it without letting him know, it defies common sense. i think the jury will get that. >> i have to ask you because there's always a little bit of choreography that goes on that when you and i try cases, we have an order of witnesses where we put our witnesses on, especially as prosecutors. the jury is watching the call it theater. i'm not trying to undermine what is at stake but it is theater and there's drama and when hope hicks whipped out of the tears right at the beginning of her cross by emil bove, i think they are crocodile tears. i didn't buy them at all. i want to get your take and what you thought about the power or the lack there of of those tears. >> it was an interesting moment. there are different theories about what is going on.

i can tell you from being in the courtroom and seeing it myself, my thought was leading up to the moment where she has the microphone dropped at the end of her direct examination, where she says, you know, donald trump told me this would have been damaging had it come out earlier during the campaign, this would have damaged the campaign, that was a really important point for the prosecution and they ended on that point. before that point, they had been asking a number of questions and she was very deliberate in her answers. did you speak to michael cohen? well, you know, not at that point. i thought you were asking me that day. i did speak to him after. she's really parsing her words and being deliberate. that is she playing games? she's doing all that, she seems kind of tense and nervous on the stand. when she delivers that body blow to him with the statement that, yes, it would have been damaging to the campaign. and it was after that yes, there were questions, very few questions on cross about like what her jobs were at the trump organization, which she had

testified to. it didn't strike me that those questions were anything that was going to put her over the edge at all. she seemed emotional after she had delivered that testimony like knowing the weight of it. that was my sense because, again, i think she does want to please donald trump. i don't think she was in any way trying to necessarily hurt him. i think in that moment, she told the truth and she knew it was a really big moment. >> we don't have a ruling from judge juan merchan on the four violations of the gag order, one of which judge juan merchan indicated he wasn't really thinking was a big deal and david pecker , lamented as being a nice guy. you think judge juan merchan is inching its way toward incarceration. i personally think he should put donald trump in jail but i want to get your thoughts on this. >> i think the fact that he said if you keep it up i will impose jail because these fines

are not getting it done. $9000.00 is a slap on the wrist to donald trump. there have to be meaningful sanctions for him to continue to violate a court order, i agree with you that the time is long past for him to go in jail. anyone else who violated a court order this many times, not once, not twice, it is not a mistake, he knows exactly what he's doing. you're not just targeting the witnesses, you are targeting jurors. the latest set of violations includes a violation where he is talking about this jury is 95% democrats, i can't get a fair trial. you can't talk about the jurors. that is sacrosanct. the judge is inching there. i'm not sure if he will get there on this one but it needs to happen. he needs to be treated just like everybody else. >> no one is above the law, right? thank you so much for being here, kristy greenberg. it is so good to see you. coming up, the cruelty is the point. one year after losing her baby due to florida's then 15 week abortion ban, a florida law is back to talk about how she and her family are healing from their tragedy and how she is fighting back against florida's even more restrictive six week abortion ban. there's more to come on the

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he didn't open his eyes and all. he didn't cry at all. he just, i just kind of held him. i knew how hard a time he was having trying to breathe. he took his first breath and he took his last breath. >> baby milo lived for 99

minutes. at 24 weeks, deborah's doctors told her fetus was suffering from potters syndrome. he had no kidneys and lungs were underdeveloped. the specialist said his condition was "incompatible with life." at that time, florida's 15 week abortion ban prevented her from terminating the pregnancy and debra was forced to carry her nonviable pregnancy to full term. florida's abortion ban is even more draconian with no abortions after six weeks of pregnancy with exceptions for rape, medical emergencies , and "some fetal anomalies." joining me now is deborah dorber. i was grateful for the privilege of being able to speak with you last year. since then, you and i being ceridian's have now seen a six week abortion ban kick in in

our state. i want to ask you straight off the top, how are you and your family doing? >> we have been struggling. i started struggling with my mental health. fell into deep depression and suicidal thoughts. i started seeking out a psychologist and then my son had to see a psychologist as well, just to understand death. he doesn't understand everything that is going on. just understanding the death of his brother has been difficult. we take it one day at a time. >> my thoughts go out to you, your husband, and kayden, your son. i know it has been a process. this tragedy you had to go through has had a ripple effect on your entire family. it is

almost insensitive for me to talk about it but i want to know how this has affected your ability financially in terms of your health care and mental health care. i know that this was a financial struggle for you to begin with. that is part of why you didn't leave florida to get the abortion in the first place. now people need to understand that there are still continuing consequences were being forced to have to carry a child to full term because of us. >> financially, my husband had to get a second job because health insurance won't cover seeing a psychologist or therapy. you can imagine $200.00 a visit. two of us are going, that adds up on a weekly basis. he's had to get a second job to help cover those bills not only from every and everything but all the treatment we need now. just because insurance won't cover it. and then it has taken a big hit on our marriage.

we've been having to do some marriage counseling as well. >> deborah, your bravery goes beyond just having to carry a child to full term only to have baby milo pass away, like i said after only 99 minutes. you have taken your bravery and an even bigger public sphere. he testified last month before congress about your journey and its impact on you and your loved ones. what did it mean for you to be able to have the opportunity to not only personalize what happened to you and congress but also give a voice to others? >> i just felt honored when congressman debbie wasserman schultz contacted me. it just, it felt very powerful that my voice to speak for all

of us and to share what i went through. for me, it is a way to honor my son, who passed because he didn't deserve the way he died. i didn't deserve what i went through with my family. >> in november, we do have a constitutional amendment that will appear on the ballot. it would enshrine in our state's constitution in florida the right to have an abortion. how do you feel about the fact that so many floridians, both on the republican side and the democratic side have said they are supporting the idea of getting this constitutional amendment passed the finish line? >> i think it is so important. when we go to the polls in november, abortion will be on the ballot to vote yes on the abortion.

so we can overturn the six week bayern. i didn't know i was pregnant when i was six weeks. i think it will be very important to vote yes on abortion to get it passed. >> deborah dorber, i want to emphasize how grateful i am for you to take the time to join me today. you have always been somebody i have looked to and admired for your courage and for being willing to speak about what happened to you with such transparency. thank you for being here. again, i appreciate you so much. >> thank you so much. >> the head, kissing the ring. several republican contenders for vice president are in florida at a donald trump fundraiser. who has the best chance for the number two spot on his ticket? first, the speaker fight.

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it is stage avenue on capitol hill thanks to a certain republican congresswoman from georgia. on wednesday, marjorie taylor greene announced she plans to force a vote to oust house speaker mike johnson next week. comes after democratic house leadership released a statement that they would vote to protect johnson from a so-called motion to vacate, killing her motion in the spirit of bipartisan cooperation. only two of her fellow chaos caucus members joined her motion, a far cry from the eight conservatives who voted with democrats last fall to oust kevin mccarthy. marjorie taylor greene proven the house gop is just another broken record. joining me now is congresswoman grace ming, a member of the house appropriations committee. congresswoman, as always, it is an honor to have you on the show. let's talk about the fact that marjorie taylor greene is pushing forward with her plan to force a vote to oust house

speaker mike johnson. we are all familiar with the total dysfunction on the other side of the aisle. your own party leadership said, though, they will vote to table her motion to vacate, saving johnson. where does your vote stand on this particular issue? >> thank you for having me, katie. we really need to bring common sense and calm back to congress. we are so grateful for our leader, hakeem jeffries, who, over the past year and a half or so has consistently shown that our democratic caucus is there to get work done. this is not about politics or about 30. most of the american people want to see congress functioning, working on bills to improve the quality of life of all americans. and, under the past two speakers, whether it is kevin mccarthy, or micah johnson, they are just letting the most

extreme and chaotic members of their caucus take over congress, which is not good for either party or our country. >> congresswoman, you cannot ignore all of the protests that are going on on all of the college campuses across the united states. but, the key to what is going on is trying to resolve the israel hamas war, trying to get the rest of the hostages back and trying to figure out a path to move forward. we know the cia director, william burns, is now in cairo, egypt, where negotiations are underway to be able to find and achieve a cease-fire agreement. share with us your confidence that you think they will be able to reach a deal that will actually, hopefully end the war. >> we can't predict exactly what is going to happen but we all want an end to this war. any type of and must include a

cease-fire from both parties, from hamas and from israel. it cannot be one-sided. we need our american hostages back, especially. >> i also wanted to talk about this a bill that was recently supported by you that deals with those demonstrations and others protests on college campuses. the house passing and anti- semitism bill. you voted for it but it was born out of some really incendiary language seen at these protests. do you think that these protests have been successful in getting their messages across? >> i think our students have an absolute right to protest but it must be done in a peaceful way that cannot interfere or intimidate the lives of the other students on our college campuses. we know that on many campuses, it has been exacerbated by outside agitators. so, we support protests but they must be peaceful and can't scare and

intimidate other students. that legislation, which i voted for, it is a messaging piece. i understand why people supported it. but, the real meat, the substance of what we need to do, is working on bipartisan legislation that is put forward by congresswoman kathy manning and many of us on both sides of the aisle to make sure that we are actually putting resources in the department of education office for civil rights. we can't say we are against anti-semitism and not find the actual office that would help root it out. >> i've got less than a minute. i did want to ask you, it is aapi heritage month. one of the main reasons i wanted to speak to you as well, do play a large part in helping get tom suozzi elected to the house. talk about how important the vote is going into november of 2024? >> we are so proud of the

coalition that put sanity back in new york three. this was a beautiful coalition of a candidate, tom suozzi, not just attending one or two aapi events but making sure he was engaging regularly with our community. we are not ceding territory to the claim that asian americans are veering right. when parties and candidates communicate consistently with our community, they tend to overwhelmingly support democratic values and vote democrat. that is what we saw with tom suozzi. from the labor unions, from the everyday grassroots activists that leaned in to a campaign that not just put words but put action behind investing in our community, we saw that that is a formula for victory. >> congresswoman grace ming,

thank you for joining us. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. this weekend, donald trump is back in florida taking a break from the courtroom to court a running mate for his presidential ticket. he is hosting the republican national committee spring donor retreat. in attendance, a bevy of vp hopefuls who will be lining up to kiss the ring, a rose gallery of familiar names including senator tim scott, dog loving south dakota governor kristi noem and former rival vivek ramaswamy. the donor summit will be a test of their fundraising comments . joining me now is dallas michael junior, director of the public policy program at hunter college and a democratic strategist. there's no shockers there from the list of the names of prospective vp, who has the best shot right now? >> if you take of the people anyone that shot their puppy, terrible story, i don't know why she would be compelled to

do that. take her out of the mix, there are interesting names, like elise stefanik. remember congress, upstate new york. she has been auditioning for a while. what is interesting about her, if you are a strategist, from two perspectives where she is interesting. one, she represents new york and new york will be very important to democrats in terms of taking congress back. two, i imagine donald trump liked the way she went at the college presidents during those hearings because he would be able to say look at how she went after the elites in this country, even though he wants to be one. i think for him, that is an attractive person. tim scott is interesting. i don't know if you would want somebody who is also wealthy and it would more polished, he has to be the only rich person on the state. >> don't you think he needs a woman? >> it is interesting. as you listen to hope hicks yesterday and the conversation that he was really concerned

about the women in his life after the access hollywood tape. he's concerned about the women in his life, not the women in our lives? or the women he assaults? if from a strategic standpoint, if he feels that he's really vulnerable there cares deeply about getting women to vote for him this go-round, elise stefanik might be better. >> in all seriousness, something that i heard that he said made me very worried, a lot of what he says worries me but he said in an interview this week about if he would accept the election results. he said, "if everything is honest, i gladly accept the results. if it is not, you have to fight for the right of the country." he's talking about election fraud that hasn't happened, setting up an excuse when he loses. he's saying you have to fight for the right of the country.

it was just a practice one, a dry run for something that could be worse. >> that is a great way to look at it. he has said he might pardon the folks who were imprisoned for january 6. i'm not so, i am concerned about who he would pardon but i am more concerned about who he arrests, what is he going to criminalize going forward. think about all the people embedded in our election system, the election workers, the poll workers day today. ruby freeman, who got a visit from a trump acolyte to intimidate her in terms of this quote unquote election fraud that he claims. i do think it is an important take away that, you know, where in 2016 people thought he was just joking in 2016, people were very dismissive of a lot of the threats that he made. but, he's still making them and

you better believe that he will surround himself with loyalists to try to implement all of it. i tell people all the time with her say they don't want to vote in this election, i say this might be the last election you can vote in so you better take advantage of it now. >> he also said in "time magazine," he would be okay with the state prosecuting those that violate abortion ban's because we know it is back to the states post roe . this goes back to the very beginning of our conversation about whether or not it makes sense to have a woman next to him coming off of this hush money payments, election fraud, defamation verdicts. he's got a lot of stuff going on but then he goes out and says this. how does he reconcile saying he doesn't want women to have reproductive rights but then he's going to want to have a woman next to him for vp? >> when you ask how does he reconcile, you assume he is rational like the rest of us

and is a strategist like the rest of us and he clearly doesn't think like the rest of us. it is about who is in his ear last and what we are seeing is number one, him take credit for the end of roe v. wade. i think he will continue to double down on that because that is where he feels, that is where he feels the pulse of the party is as if he gets the applause, that is where it will come from. people who support that position. does it make sense for him to get someone like elise stefanik? probably. but, it wouldn't stop him from continuing to do and say all the terrible things he's doing and saying. what will be interesting is if elise stefanik still stands by him while he's doing that. but, you know, we have seen people who have been moderate and moved to the right and now are moving into this trump direction. there's no stopping it, sadly. >> a perfect example is hope hicks. she came back to work for him. thank you for being here, it's good to have you here. coming up, how hollywood could be losing out on billions of dollars each year by not investing in the right talent. tony award-winning actor bd wong joins me life onset and how he's working to get tinseltown to stop leaving money on the table. don't go anywhere. n't go anywh.

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as we kick off aapi heritage month, a new report is refilling hollywood could be losing out on billions of dollars in revenue by not investing in aapi talent. "nearly half of the aapi respondents living in the u.s. indicated they would spend more money on film and tv and consume more content if aapi experiences were more authentically represented ." the report adding that if aapi consumers but the same share of their income on film and tv as white consumers do, the opportunity arises to $4 billion annually. joining me now is tony award- winning actor deedee wong, currently starring in "what became of us," at the atlantic theater company. i have a grin from ear to ear having you here, bd wong. thank you so much for being

here. >> it is completely mutual. >> okay. we could just sit here and mutually and girl. let's talk about this report. the aapi community would be more inclined to spend money on entertainment if we had better presentation. you've been in this industry for decades, does that make sense, does that resonate? >> i did not know about this study but i do know that you and i both know over the years, we have seen the opportunity for asian americans to be spending money on our own content. we have seen people buying out houses of "crazy rich nations," and "joyride," to share their support and desire for more content and more truth and more stories and we have seen it incrementally move in the direction that we hope it could move in and we should be encouraged by that. there's nothing bogus about that at all. >> i have to ask, i'm not

trying to be debbie downer on this, you've seen this as well, you experienced this as well. there are rules recently that have been created for an asian lead, male and female, and yet oftentimes, for example, you don't have an asian male romantic lead, for example. there are spaces that we are still not taking up because we are just not considered for those roles. >> right. there's a lot of, you know, terrible reasoning behind like you will get a lot of excuses about marketing and what of the wider audience, what they think the wider audience wants. i think we need to kind of prove we are always in a position where we are having to prove that that is not true. people only want to default to white protagonists. they can not relate to any protectiveness that is not a white protagonists. that is not true. we are interested in a character that has truth and beliefs and values and morals that we relate to, not race.

>> and talking about things that are true, you are one of the first actors in hollywood to come out as gay. it is a tough industry. talk about how challenging it was for you to make that decision and to continue to be your true authentic self. you are asian and i know from our community, sometimes it hasn't always been an acceptance of being gay and being asian. >> that is absolutely true . yet, i think i kind of think of them as parallel identities. as an asian american and as a gay person, i feel the sense of needing to be truthful. i think it is because as an actor, as a young actor, as a student, i was taught about truth and i was taught about authenticity, where that comes from and how, over the years, as you are asian after becoming older, you will learn how to use more of yourself. so, the logic is the more you that you have to use the better

your work will be. so, that was just part of my natural process. today, it is also very limiting, it feels a very, not just inauthentic but it feels inadequate to include these things in the list of what it is that i am and there's a long list. it is not just two things. it is all these different things, i'm left-handed, i'm a progressive person, i think a certain way and do certain things. whatever it is that i am, it is a list of things. the more complete and the more varied you can make that list, the redder your work will be. that is where i started and that ended up being a public statement, actually. and, that is fine with me to make. >> may first launched aapi heritage month for us. i like to say we are also asian 365 days a year, not just in the month of may. don't forget that.

what does it mean to you to have something like aapi heritage month to be launching this play and to be costarring with roslyn chow, a spectacular chinese actress, there's just so much beauty and progress there so what does this mean for you? >> it is wonderful the players launching this month. we are deep in the household right now and the plate is a wonderfully, cleverly written play about a sibling relationship from beginning to end and what is wonderful about it is it is about how where we were born and when we were born affect our relationship to our parents and to each other as siblings. and, it is also being double cast with the second cast, tony alub and the fact that we are from different backgrounds informs the play in a wonderful way because the play is written about an immigrant experience that is very neutral.

it doesn't talk about exactly where they came from. it doesn't say where they were from and what their individual experience is but you get to see side by side in this production the similarities and the differences in our culture. >> i will say a three part ways, the one cool thing anybody was your first acting role was "boy on street," was the credit in "the karate kid two." how could i not have seen it? >> it is literally three seconds long, one line where i'm passing out flyers and i walk through the shot and then i'm gone. >> i'm going to go do that now. for those of you that are watching, go and find that as well. thank you for being here, bd wong. go see the play "what became of us," we will be right back.

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[♪ music playing ♪] my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. donald trump isn't shy and he isn't subtle and is going to tell you exactly what he's going to do if he wins a second term. he has said he's willing to build a migrant detention camp. he would let red states monitor pregnancies and prosecute anyone who gets an abortion and would be willing to fire a u.s. attorney who doesn't carry out his orders to prosecute someone. in short, this is donald trump's chance at revenge and this all falls under the ideology of a group called

"project 2025," led by the heritage foundation, pushing an ultraconservative agenda. its website says "the actions of liberal politicians in washington have created a desperate need and unique opportunity for conservatives to start undoing the damage the left has wrought to build a better country for all americans in 2025." that is terrifying. joining me now is olivia choi, former homeland security advisor to vice president mike pence. always so good to have you here. i just listed some of the things trump says he will do. he's very closely aligned with project 2025, basically wants to reshape america's balance of power by putting virtually every part of the government under control, executive control. you worked in the white house. do you see there is a viable path for trump to successfully consolidate the power in the executive branch question

>> absolutely. i know that they learned the lessons from the first time around, where they try to amend these more extreme policies and they realized that there is a system of government across the u.s. government that works and that is how policy works. what they've learned is they've taken all the lessons of navigating that space and being challenged by it because people were following rules and the judicial system and they were not going to break the law and they figured out a way to navigate it. we should take them at their word. when you hear trump, sometimes his policies shift with whatever way the wind is blowing. i would say is pay attention to the heritage foundation. pay attention to things like project 2025. that is where the actual policies that will come into a trump administration are being written and sold to the public. >> i'm so glad you said that

last part. pay attention to the heritage foundation. but trump has done is he's crazy and he says crazy stuff out loud. what he's done is he has clothed himself in legitimacy by taking something like the heritage foundation, which has been around for a long time. this didn't just sprout overnight. the heritage foundation has been around a long time. project 2025 is the mission statement for the heritage foundation. why is it he does say the crazy part outlet and the heritage foundation, which is an established republican foundation seems to be okay with it? >> i think because they have found a leader in his movement. when you look at the heritage foundation of today compared to the heritage foundation throughout maybe the past two decades, it is a very different institution. if you take an analysis of the policies there, they are using ronald reagan as

a cloak, if you look at project 2025, they refer to reagan conservatism over and over and say that is what they are plummeting. i would argue it is anything but that. they are all for the fact that republicans held back on eight for ukraine. ronald reagan would not stand for that. if you read the tenant in terms of foreign policy, it is very clear that there is an opportunity there for trump to withdraw from the toe and that would be ronald reagan's worst nightmare. when you start to break it down, there are so many extreme policies being pushed here that i think moderate conservatives like myself and others are very concerned about the direction of this because the extremists have co-opted the heritage foundation. if you look at the groups that are aligned with, it is groups pushing christian nationalism. those aren't the people that used to work at the heritage foundation back in the day. i know some of those people, they are honorable people. i talked to them today and they are horrified at what they have become. >> those voices of sanity and reason, those guardrails stored the first administration and, of course, were gone once we

got a great president in office with president biden. they are gone. what can you emphasize again, olivia, about the fact that those tests, the limits, the testing of the limits that actually restored during the 2016 administration of donald trump, there was a ", what does that foretell for america if he ends up in the oval office? >> the guardrails don't exist anymore. there are people that pushed back on that along the way but they would be the ones in the room anymore. i will say this, what they are doing right now is they are preparing to hit the ground running from day one, which is what they learned the first time around, that they did not have the mechanism in place to start implementing from day one of the beginning of the trump

administration. right now, what they have built a coalition of people. they have been recruiting. i know this for a fact, they have been recruiting people that will replace government employees. they will replace the federal workforce. they will replace expert knowledge across the u.s. government. i will say this, republican conservative from back in the day sought out to preserve government institutions. that was one of the pinnacles of it. it was to preserve the judicial system, preserve the department of justice, preserve the department of defense. it was promilitary. this is antithetical to that. now what they are saying is we are going to, forget about independence, forget about independent government and have it be a function that supports the people when it is needed but now they are saying we are going to cooperate with our own type of extreme political agenda, which is antithetical to what i believed along the way. that is why i signed up for public service. this is why this is disturbing on so many levels. you and i could have many

conversations about the different tenants and break them down and maybe that is what we need to do is explain this 101 and conservatives who understand what is happening here, who are very concerned about the direction this would take the country. >> that is what we are going to do. olivia troy, thanks for being here and thanks for all of you for joining me today. remember to follow us on social media using the handle . take your phone out, scan the qr code on your screen to follow now. msnbc reports with alex wood is up next. next. i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. some people say, "why should i take prevagen? i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight. i started noticing subtle lapses in memory. i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. it's helped my memory. it's helped my cognitive qualities. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription.

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