before we go, there's a special interview happening on msnbc tomorrow. joy reid sits down with wnba star brittney griner for her first cable interview since her arrest and imprisonment in russia. she will talk about her time spent in a russian penal comedy -- community and her ongoing efforts advocating for other prisoners around the world. that is on the reidout, tomorrow. we will see you next weekend. in the meantime, ali

velshi who writes books, goes and reports from hurricanes, and anchors every hour of television starts now. >> long time, no sea. >> yes, and it was lovely to be with you. i would love to make this a little more regular. i can only turn out so many books at a time so i will find another reason to come in. >> you have thoughts about the economy, diplomacy, tromp. >> we can work it out. >> i would enjoy that. i love watching you, friend. have a great rest of your day and thank you. >> goodbye. >> thanks you at home for joining us. today on velshi, we are following breaking news in los angeles where the lapd arrived on the campus of the university of southern california in predawn hours of this morning to clear a pro-palestinian protest encampment. brand new provocation said

to dismantle the fragile cease- fire negotiations between israel and hamas. we will have the latest on that. first, mary trump will join me with insights on her uncles joint campaign criminal defense strategy. donald trump's ability to act has -- as puppetmaster of house republicans may be faltering. then a nightmare scenario for abortion rights advocates is becoming reality. i will tell you about a tactic that could effectively track women, living in antiabortion states, cutting them off from access to legal abortion across state lines. velshi starts now. good morning and it sunday, may 5th with the 2044 elections six months away, donald trump is lashing out as he continues to grow frustrated with how his prosecutions are getting in the way of his bid to return to the white house. the twice a peach, four times a

day the disgraced ex-president is currently the defendant in an ongoing criminal trial in new york city. but this weekend he is in his adopted home state of florida where the republican party's annual spring retreat has been underway since friday. as part of the retreat, the former president hosted a luncheon yesterday at mar-a- lago where he gave a keynote speech that included diatribes about his political opponents, as well as people involved in his criminal cases. during his speech trump likened the biden administration to the gestapo. the political police force of training team germany. he called them the worst president in the history of the country and added he's grossly incompetent and crooked as hell. he hurled insults at jack smith calling him the rage, sick and evil. many republicans were in the crowd including speaker of the house mike johnson whom trump

singled out and complemented during his speech. also in attendance at this weekend's retreat, are the republicans who remain on the short-lived to possibly become trump's running late. that includes florida senator marco rubio, the ohio senator j.d. vance and two primary opponents, the cycle, the south carolina senator tim scott and north dakota governor doug burgum. officially running, near congresswoman elise stefanik, south dakota governor kristi noem, florida congressman byron donalds and entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy, all of whom have made their presence known. trump, however, recently said he's in no rush to make a decision. you will likely announce his choice in the lead up to the republican national convention which will be in mid july. it appears the former president is more focused on his legal troubles. on friday he published a post calling for the arrest of jack smith and accusing him of being a criminal.

despite the fact the judge one mershon already found him in contempt for multiple violations of his gag order, trump is continuing to comment on the trial. is been focusing criticisms on judge mershon and the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg, neither of whom are protected. in the past few days along the former president posted multiple times on three social baselessly accusing the man is being corrupt, conflicted and cricket. his outburst comes after another week that featured salacious testimony about his connections to the sleazy world of tabloid magazines. it accommodated with his former aide hope hicks taking the stand. the first figure from trump money 16 presidential campaign to do so. to begin her testimony saying she was nervous and at one point broke down in tears. hicks offered a firsthand account of the final weeks of the 2016 presidential campaign, especially around the time when the access hollywood tapes came out. the crucial time period in

relation to this case. we want to talk about that. joining me is mary trump, the niece of the former president, donald trump and author of the good in us. a very important stuff and other multiple books including too much and never enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man. mary, it is great to see you again. thank you for being with us this morning. let's talk about what we saw last week. donald trump was fined $9000 for violating a gag order, not much money for him these days. he faced a second hearing about more apparent violations and the judge wanted him if he keeps it up, the so-called a concert tory punishment or jail might be necessary. nothing seems to cause him to let him. he continues to contact -- they are not protected by the waters. what you think is going on? >> i think donald is doing exactly what is being given

permission to do. and what he is always been doing. nothing stops him because nobody is stopping him. it seems absolutely absurd to me that the prosecution is going out of its way to argue there should not be any concert tory penalty because what is that financial fined going to do, nothing. because as the judge himself pointed out, it is not a deterrent to donald trump. he will pay that all day long because apparently the judge can't find him more than $1000 per offense. so the offenses will keep piling up unless, and until something serious is done. because first of all it doesn't matter if donald trump is angling for jail time, which is another argument the prosecution has made. that is ridiculous. first of all. but secondly, it doesn't matter. you don't find somebody or punish somebody based on what they want. you punish them based on the offenses in front of you.

so until somebody is willing to step up and we have seen this even in the several trials, it still isn't enough because he gets the money from somewhere else, to cover the front trial in new york city or his payments to e. jean carroll. somebody has to understand this person well push the envelope as long as he's allowed to. we seen it in our politics and that we are seeing it in criminal trial. >> from a political perspective, the not allowing him to, is probably on voters, to make that decision but what else do you think involves standing up to donald trump? we are not going to see it from congressional republicans. we have clearly given his gathering of key republicans this weekend, not going to see it from any prominent republicans, because half of them would like to be his vice presidential candidate. are you hoping someone, somehow or someone in the court system?

>> those hopes are diminishing quickly because it looks like this new york trial may be the only trial that even begins before the election. let alone finishes. so i hope that the jurors will weigh the evidence appropriately and punish donald purposely. but we will see when the time comes. in the meantime you are right, the republican party certainly won't do anything, and the supreme court is going out of its way to make sure that donald is allowed to run for the presidency, completely unburdened by the crimes he allegedly committed against the united states of america. so i think at this point it is up to the media and it is up to the american voters, who need the media to make sure that they have all the information they need before they go into the ballot box on november 9th, as if they don't have the information already but apparently many of them don't. >> so let's talk about that. it is important because there

are allegations the media is doing what it did in 2016, giving donald trump a lot of airtime. i certainly hear from my viewers, not most but from some who say i don't want to hear anything about what donald trump has a say and let's focus on what joe biden has done. what, in your sense, is the responsible thing for media to do, as it relates to donald trump. not just covering the legal travails and things he's alleged to have done, but on an increasing basis, on a daily basis, the outrageous stuff he continues to say? >> it is a very tricky issue. on one hand i agree, i am so sick of him. i am sick of a lot of the coverage of him, that continues to normalize him. we see him covered in a split screen and on the one hand he is a criminal defendant is allegedly committed all sorts of crimes against the country and on the other hand, he is a candidate for the presidency, as if the former doesn't impinge at all on the ladder. it is quite stunning. to see that his candidacy, in

some respects remains completely unscathed. of course we can't completely terrorize because he is running for the presidency, and so it is a tricky line. i think one thing we need to let go of is figuring out why people continue to support him. we need to do that but we need to do that later, actually after we save democracy. right now the only thing we can really do, that can have a big impact on voters, leading up to november, is making a very clear case. what did -- not just what has he done, but what is he telling us, very explicitly he's going to do, on the one hand and on the other hand what has the biden administration been able to accomplish in three years, and in many cases with both hands tied behind its back. >> in the three weeks of this had trial that's been going on, eric trump has been the only family member to sit in the court room and watch

proceedings. in theory i would take that as being supportive of his father. something we haven't seen elsewhere. what you make of that, that there hasn't been a short support in the room from other of his family members, and knowing what you know about donald trump, what you think he makes of it? >> i think first of all, eric showed up because the defense lawyers probably told donald it looks really bad he doesn't have any family members. i don't think donald cares. i think all the relationships are transactional. i don't think it matters to him. i don't think his children are -- or his wife think it does any good to show up. is much more concerned about the complete lack of supporters outside the courthouse. i think that is a much bigger blow to him, but his ego and his narcissistic need for attention. so i don't really make much of it, honestly. if you wanted them there, he would be there. -- they would be there. >> mary, i always enjoy reading

your sub stack. thank you for being with us. mary trump, the niece of donald trump and author of multiple books including too much and never enough, how might family created the world's most dangerous man. coming up, the house of representatives is back in session tomorrow and far right republicans are threatening to oust the speaker, mike johnson but this time democrats -- to save his job. we will talk about the new era that could usher in. early this morning los angeles police cleared the protest encampment from the university of southern california. so far no reports of arrest or lashes. i will discuss the situation playing out on campuses across the country. alarming dispatch from the growing swath of america living under abortion ban's. where patients are in danger and health care advocate lives under the threat of arrest. arr

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summer is right around the corner and you can feel it in the air. kids are getting out of school, americans are appearing to get the heck out of dodge for a much-needed vacation. allow me to be her 2020 for summer travel guide. according to u.s. news and world report, glacier national park in montana is the top- ranked summer travel destination in the united dates this year, a perfect spot for nature lovers. it's got 700 lakes and 200 waterfalls and two mountain ranges. if you're more of a beach person, perhaps the outer banks of north carolina or you can head to the coast of maine for the scenic shorelines and a tasty lobster roll. another spot that is likely shut up the list of popular destinations in the last week is virginia. the top destination in the southeast region, and the only destination in the southeast region for abortions. because as of wednesday, the only other destination in the

southeast for women seeking an abortion was florida, which has just banned abortions after six weeks, earlier than when many know that they are pregnant. it is now a felony in florida to perform or actively participate in an abortion procedure after six weeks. now part of florida span it was a refuge for abortion access in the south. after roe v. wade was overturned, florida implemented a 15 week man, but that was quaint compared to neighboring states which had even tougher restrictions or outright bans. according to the new york times, for six point 4 million women, the nearest abortion clinic was in florida. last year more than 9300 people traveled to florida for abortion care, which governor ron desantis referred to as abortion tourism. he didn't quite the term, he's not that clever. last year it already had been a favorite tagline for antiabortion activists and considered bit of politicians

to minimize the journey many women are forced to take to get an abortion. abortion tourism is the act of traveling outside state lines or even outside the country to obtain an abortion, because that is the dystopia in which we live. phrases like abortion tourism and abortion destination are now part of the vernacular, at least in some conservative circles as a those who need to travel for abortion care are booking first-class lights to lavish resorts and sipping piña colada's with her feet up while the medication works their way through their bodies. as if reproductive care is a luxury an essential health care. even staunch religious organizations like focus on the family acknowledge that women are being forced to travel for abortion care but according to focus on the family, your next trip to an abortion destination could be all-expenses-paid. the website reads the coast days cost of abortion varies by

state but can cost $1000. traveling makes abortion even greater expense with hotel and airfare however the financial burden is not likely to fall on women. in the past year many companies have announced they will financially aid employees who travel for an abortion. aside from the players, some organizations and a few churches have organized efforts to support traveling for an abortion, financially. now the small print on that travel deal would have to read something like, disclaimer, pregnant person is not guaranteed a free trip to get an abortion. the financial burden is in fact on the pregnant person to book and pay for travel and accommodations to a state that provides abortion care. taxes and fees will apply. let me get serious for a second because this is deadly serious for many women in the south. it was already bad in florida, the only state in the deep south that provided even some abortion care earlier than 15 weeks and i look at this, look

at this map, it is dire. abortion is severely restricted or banned in all of those red and orange states. the entire swath of the united states is a desert for reproductive care. in 2021 when roe was the law of the land, every american lived on average 25 miles from the nearest abortion clinic. today a pregnant person who is passed the six week mark down in miami let's say, would have to travel about 700 miles to the nearest clinic in charlotte, north carolina unless they are more than 12 weeks pregnant, because north carolina has a van after 12 weeks. then they would have to travel further to washington or virginia. the physical distance, the number of miles is just one roadblock. people in the south seeking an abortion need to also factor in the cost of travel, hotel, health insurance, finding childcare, getting time off of work and if any fall through

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a woman got pregnant in texas. she wanted an abortion but because she lived in texas she couldn't so she decided to travel to the nearest state that could help her. she went to colorado, where she got the abortion she needed. meanwhile her ex-partner, the one who impregnated her learned of her plan to get an abortion and hired a powerful antiabortion attorney, known in particular as the architect behind texas' heartbeat at senate built -- senate bill eight that encourages citizen vigilante is him and the hunter style enforcement, giving anyone the power to file a civil suit against someone who quote, aids or abets an abortion. so now, this man named collin

davis and his attorney jonathan mitchell who wrote the texans abortion bounty hunter law are investigating this woman and the people around her searching for a way to charge anyone involved. to be clear, nothing about this woman's abortion was illegal. traveling across state lines to obtain an abortion remains legal, nationwide. there have been laws introduced and passed, that target traveling for abortion, but none are currently in effect you're traveling for an abortion is not a crime for the moment, at least anywhere in america. but attorney jonathan mitchell wrote that mr. davis plans to quote, pursue wrongful death claims against anyone involved in the killing of his unborn child, and quote according to the washington post. in texas, all abortions are banned except to save the life of the woman or to prevent severe injury. doctors found to have broken

the law can be put in prison for life and can face up to $100,000 in civil penalties. and while women seek abortions for themselves, seeking abortions for themselves cannot be charged under texas law, anyone who quote, aids or abets, and quote, that abortion including those who distribute abortion pills can be sued in civil court for damages of $10,000 or more. her lawyer said in a statement that abortion to her outside of texas can be targeted for civil litigation. fathers of aborted fetuses can sue for wrongful death in states with abortion bans, even if the abortion occurs out of state. they can sue anyone who paid for the abortion, anyone who aided or abetted the travel and anyone involved in the manufacturing or distribution of abortion drugs. the center for reflective rights, which represents the woman who got an abortion in colorado has called the statement quote, fear mongering

and emphasizing women seeking abortions out of state should not be intimidated. now mr. davis is attempting to depose his ex-partner who obtained the abortion along with a handful of other people who may have been involved in her abortion. if deposed, this woman and others involved would have to provide all documentation relevant to the abortion including abortion funds, or any other entity that may have helped her. and now we wait to see what the texas court decides. with this case highlights the landscape in which we exist. the woman in the case, is likely in the minority because she was in fact able to leave state and get the abortion she was seeking. millions of women's -- women lives in places and circumstances where unwanted and unsafe pregnancy would end enforced birth. with florida's near-total abortion ban in effect, the vast majority of pregnant people seeking abortions in the south have nowhere to go unless they have access to significant resources to support travel and

doctors and health advocates who choose to continue to work under those antiabortion regimes to do what it'll they are legally allowed to do to help women are doing so every day under threat of arrest and prosecution. joining me as robin marty, the director of the west alabama women's center and author of important books including the new handbook for post-roe america. alabama has one of the strictest fans in the nation with no exceptions for rape and incest and providers like robin face felony charges and years in jail for providing abortion care. it is a tough introduction but i appreciate that i have to talk the truth on the show. talk to me about the case in texas because it feels very similar to the kind of thing you have been telling me about as a danger of post roe america. >> it is good to be back. it is in fact what we've been waiting for her. we knew that there would be cases, where there would be

lawsuits and let's be clear, this is frivolous. there's no place it is illegal to leave the state in order to get an abortion. but this is what we have been living under in alabama, where an official that provides resources or even information about where legal abortion clinic fire, is considered a criminal conspiracy and that we could be under arrest for that. what it means right now is that we have thousands of patients in alabama, who are pregnant, who don't want to be pregnant and don't know where they can go, in order to get an abortion and it is illegal for any person in alabama to tell them where that nearest clinic is. >> let's parse that for a while because it is hard to believe in a country where we talk about the first amendment, that it is illegal to have that conversation. how does that translate, is it illegal for you, as a person who provides reproductive health and advice to do it, is it illegal for me, if somebody

walks up to me in a coffee shop and says i'm looking for an abortion and i say you have to go to virginia or d.c. like for whom is it illegal and how will that be tested quite >> officially, according to what the attorney general is saying, it is illegal for any person to provide any thing that will help someone get an abortion outside of the state, because that abortion could be illegal in -- would be illegal in alabama. the argument provided to the court is if it is illegal in alabama it is illegal for a person in alabama to help someone obtain any sort of abortion outside of the state. for us that means we cannot provide any information. obviously it would seem like somebody, a friend, acquaintance could say, actually it turns out there is a clinic in north carolina and you can go to. but after what we've seen in texas it is a possibility that there could be an ex-partner, someone involved is like, i'm going to get a

lawyer and i'm going to slap suit you in order to see what information i can get to scare you out of doing anything again. >> tell us about what it is like across the south right now. there's lots of talk about how to support clinics in states where abortion is legal, to help them handle the influx of patients were coming from states where abortion is now illegal. but what is happening to folks were living in antiabortion states, who can't get out? you described in great detail after the fall of roe and we have tried to convey to you as it is not an easy thing, that the roles, the expenses, the cost and uncertainty around leaving your state to get an abortion, can make it difficult to impossible for a lot of women in alabama. >> so it is very complicated to try to get out of the state to get an abortion and while it is great to be resourcing these places for people to go to, or where people can obtain pills and to take medication on their

own, the problem is, in the south we do not have safe places for people to go to if they have questions, if they want to see how pregnant they are before they take pills. if they want to make sure everything is okay after, all the clinics down here except for mine and two others have closed and there is no safe place for people to go to you. this is where the action is happening. this is where people are facing the most legal risks and yet we are not being resourced in order to provide that care, that is essentially the starting care for any person who's going to need an abortion outside of this area or who wants to have an abortion inside the state which allegedly is not illegal at this moment. >> what has to happen for you to stay open? >> i need about $50,000 right now in order to stay open for the next four months. >> and people can donate directly to the west alabama women's center? >> yes, we are a nonprofit.

we have a place to donate. $50,000 will keep us open four more months. >> four more months, robin, thank you for all you do. thank you for making us wiser about this tragic situation. robin marty is executive director of the west alabama women's center and author of several books including the new handbook for a post-tran16 america. i have spent time with robin at the west alabama center. i will post some clips of my visit to her in the conversations we had, during and after the show. the l.a. police department clearing the encampment at the university of california. the school want people to leave or face arrest. the latest on the situation playing out on campuses across the country, coming up on velshi. velshi. but you need to watch out for diseases. i'll be okay. does this look ok?! ugh. how do i protect myself? with the new scotts healthy plus lawn food.

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turning to the middle east, where the high-level hamas delegation for talks in a multi- phased deal reportedly on the table, both hamas and israel really statements which appear to throw cold water on the prospects of a potential cease- fire hostage deal. that reported deal negotiated by mediators from the united states, qatar and egypt called for an immediate cease-fire of multi-phased release of israeli hostages and palestinian prisoners, a significant increase in humanitarian aid into gaza, and a multi-phased withdrawal of israeli troops from gaza as well as a multiyear reconstruction plan in gaza among other things. u.s. officials said israel was in agreement with the deal, although officials have since released several statements that appear to line up with agreeing to parts of the deal, mainly acs in fighting only for the release of hostages and not a permanent end to the war with hamas remaining in power.

this morning benjamin netanyahu also said quote, israel was and still is ready to make a truce in fighting, to free our abductees. israel will not agree to hamas demands and will continue to fight until all its goals are achieved. hamas continues to say it won't agree to a deal that doesn't immediately end the war and immediately withdraws all israeli forces from gaza and calls for hamas removal from power. meanwhile, the death and destruction in gaza continues with the death toll surpassing 34,000, according to the. -- the health ministry. multiple people were wounded by a rocket attack on -- that originated in rafah, according to the idf. hamas claimed responsibility for the attack saying it targeted and israeli military base. israel close the crossing to humanitarian trucks as a result of the attack. here at home, that los angeles players -- police department cleared the encampment at the university of

southern california that was set up 12 days ago with the school wanting people to leave or face arrest. so far there have been no reports of arrest for violence. we will break down the situation playing out at usc and campuses across the country, next on velshi. velsh. . ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ dangerous ladders. gutter muck. yuck. no wonder you hate cleaning your gutters. good thing there's leaffilter. our patented filter technology keeps leaves and debris out of your gutters forever. guaranteed. call 833- leaffilter to get started. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions. they really put us at ease. end clogged gutters for good. call 833.leaf.filter, or visit leaffilter.com today.

commencement is fast approaching for colleges across the country but the end of the school year may not spell the end of protest against israel's

war in gaza. the university of southern california announced in the last hour that the encampment on its campus has been clear. lapd began to clear the tents and protesters at 4:30 a.m. pacific time. no arrests or violence has been reported. police arrested 25 pro- palestinian protesters on saturday at the university of virginia in charlottesville. the deadly -- daily progress alleged state police used tear gas to disperse the crowd but folks -- a spokesperson said it was pepper spray. the nationwide reckoning of free speech, the right to protest, israel's war with gaza, and american involvement in supporting israel in that war. no where is this as evident as at club university were yesterday the student journalist for the daily spectator that involved in a partnership with new york magazine providing interviews and a poll with pro-israel and pro-palestine students and

professors. it paints a portrait of a fractured institution. 33% of respondents say they strongly agree that anti- semitism at columbia is a problem. 34% say that they strongly agree islamophobia at columbia is a problem. is important to note those are not mutually exclusive numbers, it is entirely likely some of the same people strongly agreed to both statements. after this week's arrest of -- only 8% of respondents feel safe expressing their views about the issue on campus but it wasn't just the arrests, several jewish students told the columbia daily spectator that they were harassed by people on campus for wearing a yarmulke or for joining a counter protest. it was columbia's president that called police on the protesters and we have seen the university doesn't call police on encampments, they tend to remain peaceful but protesters are on the job -- are in the job of attempting to commit --

commence folks and as nicholas kristof writes, that is harder when members of your group are accused of anti-semitism. what, deal zealotry within the echo chamber can lead activists to make appalling comments or make excuses for them, thus driving people away. the challenge is to take an unflinching moral stance while acknowledging that one may eventually be proved wrong, holding onto that contradiction curves the tendency toward self- righteousness and the impulse to shout at others. both of which have persuaded exactly 0 people, ever, end quote. nicholas kristof joins me to discuss this after a break along with the editor at large at jewish current. cuenrrt. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production,

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we've got breaking news out of his real. today the israeli government voted unanimously to shutdown

the media outlets, al jazeera from broadcasting within israel, due to its coverage of the war in gaza. al jazeera journalists are some of the few who have been able to report from within gaza, consistently. this comes at a crucial time for hostage negotiations, adding more pressure on his negotiating partner, qatar. joining me is nicholas kristof, author of the forthcoming book, chasing hope, he reported his life. peter joins us as well, editor at large for the magazine jewish currents and is an nbc -- msnbc political analyst and author of the book, the crisis of zionism. good morning, gentlemen. nick, i want to ask a little bit more about a very thoughtful column i quoted from, that you wrote about. this is not the typical stuff we are hearing these days. it is critical of or in support of one side of the protest or the counter protests on-campus. you are speaking specifically to the effectiveness of the

protests, and the dangers of allowing your protest to be either overtaken or influenced by unsavory matters, including and specifically anti-semitism. >> that's right. look, i agree with the aim of the protesters and i am deeply critical of the israeli prosecution of the war in gaza. and president biden support for it. i admire student protests. i think it is an impulse to make a better world. you get engaged with suffering a broad. but at the end of the day, the metric that matters is, are you helping gazans, and i am afraid that the way many of the protests, not all of them, many around the country have been conducted, undermines their own goal, and i'm shaken a little bit by my memories of a kid of the vietnam war, where the protesters were fundamentally right about the vietnam war, but

i think there was a backlash that ended up actually making that were longer in ways that did not help the vietnamese. >> i am interested in your take, peter. both of you are not people who historically would have been defined by the academy of being pro-israel or pro-palestinian because both of you existed in a world where i've known you for your, you are pro-israel and pro-palestinian at the same time. talk to me about what you think the effect of some of the most photo worthy parts of some of these demonstrations have been. >> there is definitely a rise in anti-semitism. tragically, there's always a rise of anti-semitism when there's more conflict in israel and palestine and there are slogans out of this, some of these protests that i dislike. but i think that i am more optimistic about the positive effect they are having, because what we are seeing is quite a

number of universities now, they have made a deal, to have a vote on divestment and what it means is that in the fall, we are going to be having a public debate, that we have not really had in this country before about university complicity in israel's oppression of palestinians, just as we are also starting to have debate about conditioning u.s. military aid which is also something we were not doing before these protest movements. so while i agree that there are parts of the slogans and some of the rhetoric i don't like and i agree there are people, sometimes around these movements who may cross the line into anti-semitism, which is terrible but i think they are moving the debate in a way that is important. >> let's talk about how that could happen, and i don't know if you agree with peter and if you don't come i would like to hear about that. that is there a way, that these protest can have it, so that when you compare it to the experience of the vietnam protest, it doesn't end up pushing public opinion in the wrong direction, but in fact

does do it peter is describing, bringing things into the debate that deserve to be in the debate. >> i think it is possible that there would be that pivot. i think that i would like to believe that, as peter says, there will be this debate in the fall about the underlying issues of the american relationship with israel. but you know, right now, we are not talking about the world food program warning that there's -- in gaza. we are not talking about the impending invasion perhaps of rafah. we are talking about american campuses and anti-semitism and i think there is the element of distraction from, you know, the real crisis there. i also think am a little more skeptical about how divestment would help. and i think a lot depends on

their mechanism of investment and what companies you are devasting from. but you know, i am in oregon right now. will estate protesters were demanding cutting our relations with boeing, because boeing makes fighter planes that israel uses and then it turned out that portland state does not have any boeing stock and only relationship is that boeing gives scholarships to needy students. and does that help, if that relationship is cut? i am generally, i would like to believe that there will be that for debate and maybe there will be, and to that extent it would help. but i am not optimistic. >> peter, let's talk about this. there was, for a long time, this movement that did talk about curtailing investment in israeli companies, and it was

an economic protest movement, entirely in nonviolent movement and the opposition to that movement was not only fierce, but it was the beginning of the allegation that criticism of israeli policy, israeli government policy by americans and by american students was anti-semitic and i remember this debate with people years ago to say, this is economic protest and they are saying don't buy the stuff if you don't want to buy the stuff for you think you are not supporting it. why are we shutting that discussion down? what is the line between the objection to bds and what we are seeing today? >> well i think one of the ways this may go is that people may not actually craft divestment proposals purely vis-@-vis israel. they may find ways of crafting them and some of the suits have done this, to talk about companies that are involved in military days that involve military human rights abuses that don't specifically single israel out but include israel.

along with other countries. but you know, there are aspects of the bds movement that i would not support but i do think that it is important, especially in the wake of this horrifying act of armed resistance against civilians that we saw on october 7th by thomas. and recognizing palestinians as a people are under oppression and going to resist oppression and it is important that we give people avenues for ethical and particularly nonviolent protest. if you shut those down, you shut down efforts in the international criminal court, the court of justice and the un and shut out efforts of boycotting that is a long american tradition. then you are giving people, you are not giving people avenues and you are empowering people, like the people who did the terrible massacre on october 7th because they will say, the other efforts didn't work so that is important to keep in mind when we think about this oppression, boycotts, sanctions and conditioning military aid.

>> i want to warn viewers that i'm going to put up a photo that you published as part of your column. it is a difficult photo but you wrote of a photo taken by your friend who was a surgeon at a hospital in northern gaza. i'm going to quote from you. you said the doctor was preparing to go into the operating room one day when a woman called him over and asked him to photograph her young son, in his bad. in the icu. sam went over and then realized, that the boy was dead. every time staff wanted to cover him fully with a blanket, she would lift it and say no, sam told me. and she would start talking to him, asking him where he wants. and here's a better look at the photo. tell me why this was important to you and what it clarified to you, about the war and why you chose to make a photo so central to your column. >> you know, i've just been frustrated by the lack of efficacy of my writing about

gaza and in general, writing about gaza as a whole. more than 14,000 children are believed to have been killed in gaza. the united nations says a child is killed or injured there every 10 minutes. but that is a number and i think it is easy for us to to net out. and at the end of the day i want to remind people of the stakes of this as it goes on and the stakes are little kids like that. a mom warning -- morning her child. you multiply the grief by 14,000 and you begin to understand the devastation in gaza and our complicity in it. >> gentlemen, i appreciate the nuance and complexity that you have outlined in this conversation because of the things going on over there and in this country, they do require complex thinking. thank you to both of you. kristof is a columnist for the your times, peter is editor at