♪♪ ♪♪ good morning. it's 11:00 a.m. eastern, 8:00 a.m. pacific. i'm jose diaz-balart. testimony under way for day 12 of former president donald trump's new york hush money trial. the jury hearing from former trump organization controller jeffrey mcconney who played a role in reimbursing michael cohen for the payment he made to stormy daniels. just before testimony resumed, the judge fined trump another $1,000 for violating the partial gag order imposed on him. that's in addition to the $9,000 he was fined last week for previous violations. the judge also warned trump directly, future violations could see him sent to jail, saying, quote, it appears that $1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. with us now to talk more about this msnbc national correspondent yasmin vossoughian outside the courthouse in lower manhattan.

michael zeldan, special counsel to robert mueller, he's a professor at american university and david aaronberg state attorney for california. yasmin, it's been an intense day in the courtroom so far. i think we just lost yasmin. we just did. let me ask you, dave, if i could, the morning started with this admonition by judge merchan to the former president. this is the tenth one, another grand. it's 10 grand, but it's not doing a lot. the other big bombshell, if you will during today's testimony, is mcconney. who is he and what is it that the prosecution is getting at with him? >> he's the comptroller for the company. we've heard his name before.

it's important because this is the next phase of the trial. we had the sexy phase at first, that trump was involved from the beginning, he was part of the hush-money scheme. now it's important prosecutors try to tie trump to the falsification of the business records. that's where mcconney comes in because michael cohen sent mcconney the invoices and instructed him to frame them as legal services. mcconney can say if trump was involved. that is key. unless trump can be tied to the falsification of business records, the defense has reasonable doubt. >> i want to bring in vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. vaughn, what is going on right now? >> reporter: they're currently getting into the minutia of the approval from alan weisselberg to jeffrey mcconney to have the michael cohen invoices approved

and those reimbursement checks initially. the first two signed by weisselberg as well as don jr. then the final one coming from donald trump's personal account and signed by donald trump himself. you have jeffrey mcconney, someone who worked for 35 years for the trump organization, a loyalist to donald trump and the family, testifying in the courtroom that he understood that the $35,000 checks that were being labeled in the ledger as monthly legal retainer expenses were actually reimbursements made to michael cohen for previous acts, as well as a doubling of that to cover tax purposes, as well as to offset bonus that michael cohen had argued he deserved. this is where you're getting at the heart of a key ally of donald trump within the trump

organization testifying today that he in early 2017 mowingly was -- at the direction of alan weisselberg and checks signed by donald trump himself, was at the heart of the alleged falsification of business records by donald trump in an apparent scheme here that was -- number one, you have a group of folks that argue that donald trump was medic louse about the expenses and the way he spends his money through the trump organization and now you have an accounting by the individual who saw -- oversaw the accounting testifying here today that he at the direction of alan weisselberg through donald trump was the one providing those checks to michael cohen throughout the year of 2017. >> michael, explain, if you would, why it's important that the prosecution show that there was falsification of records and

is that illegal if it's done in a private organization? >> yes. you can't falsify business records that you're submitted to the state. that's a crime. that's what at the heart of the business records. in addition to what vaughn said about the importance of the mcconney testimony, what's also important is one of the defense arguments is going to be michael cohen went rogue. this was him acting on his own for his own benefit, to be the good soldier for the trump organization, that trump was unaware of this. he's blowing apart that reasonable doubt cohen rogue argument. trump is signing checks. he knows the source of the money is -- the purpose of that repayment is. that undermines the key element what they tried to establish through hope hicks and davidson,

that this was cohen on his own without trump's knowledge and consent. >> it's interesting because mcconney testified that trump instructed him not to just pay bills blindly, but to negotiate them at all times. why is that an important statement? >> well, trump wanted to be involved in this stuff. when he says that, you go ahead and negotiate, it means i want you to cut a good deal. it shows that trump is managing this. he's not just standing on the side saying, do whatever you want to do. no. trump is involved. there's a leap we have to take, that trump would have been involved in knowing this was going to be recorded as legal services here. also, it's important to know that mcconney was instructed to make sure you're getting the best deal for the company. mcconney wouldn't have just overpaid cohen for legal services unless he knew it was not for legal services, it was

for hush money. this helped. there's still a logical leap you have to take to get trump involved in this. at some point they have to tie him directly to this falsification scheme. >> michael, how would something like that be tying trump in? we're seeing, as a matter of fact, it's invoice after invoice that the jurors are seeing about retainer agreements, pay backs, giving this and that. it's almost like -- to use something that david used in the past, granular. it's almost breaking it down to the smallest denominator. what are the things that need to be proven or shown that would prove that trump was directly involved in this? >> well, what they are trying to do is to say trump is a financial micromanager. nothing goes on within trump organization that trump doesn't know about and approve.

they're saying to the jury, the prosecutors are when they get to closing arguments, use your common sense. would $400,000 -- which is about what cohen was repaid after the taxes and the roll-out so it's a complete wash for cohen's $130,000, would it make sense for trump, who is renegotiating -- wanting to renegotiate plumber bills and furniture costs, that he would not know about the michael cohen $400,000 repayment. i think what they're saying to the jury is this is who donald trump is. he is a cheapskate. he's a micromanager and it makes no sense he could say this is cohen on his own without his consent.

then you'll get other witnesses how it was recorded on the books, how the books were transmitted, what the tax benefits were by doing it this way. >> alan weisselberg's name has come up as recently as today. there are no plans to call weisselberg, at least not by the prosecution. he's in jail. what do you make of the fact that he's being spoken about, but will not be as part of the prosecution's witnesses? >> you can't talk about the finances about the trump organization without mentions its cfo alan weisselberg. why would prosecutors call him as a witness because he's a loyalist to trump? he's currently at riker's island because he lied for trump. >> cohen has lied and perjured

himself and spent time in prison. the prosecution is calling him. he's a star witness. hope hicks who was not exactly anti-trump when she testified, yet was able to clarify a lot of things. why would you not have that as a prosecutor? >> he's a hostile witness for prosecutors. he's not going to help the state. hope hicks was helpful to the state. michael cohen has lied in the past, but came clean. the reason he lied in the past was to protect trump. weisselberg is a loyalist to his grave. he'll lie on the stand. he'll do nothing but hurt the state's case and they don't need him. >> vaughn, meanwhile, how is inside the courtroom today? there are a lot of invoices and emails being shown this morning. >> reporter: right. there's a lot of documents they are using here in front of this jury. again, for these jurors here

they're listening to somebody who is a 35-year employee of donald trump who is evering after just leaving his position at the trump organization. as part of the civil fraud, he was found liable for engaging in insurance fraud and was barred in serving in a legal capacity for any institution in the state of new york. this is a long-time ally of donald trump. that's for the prosecution much like we heard from hope hicks on the personnel side. you have somebody who was working in the form of an accountant here who is testifying here today about what was standard records keeping. there's one exchange in which the prosecutor asked, did you send this invoice to the legal department? meaning the michael cohen invoice for the compensation of $35,000. mcconney says, no. was it typical for the legal

department to review requests for invoices like these? he said yes. when we talk about the importance of the falsification of business records and why legal expenses denoting them in the ledger as such, you're also dealing with the ability to make those tax deductible filings and checks to michael cohen. if you were simply paying off a hush money payment to stormy daniels, you're not able to have a tax write-off here. this is the reason and the understanding and the legal implications for signing checks for legal expenses versus compensating for hush money and why the falsification of business records is pertinent to the trump organization and trump personally. >> everyone stay with us.

we'll have more on donald trump violating the gag order and the judge warning he could have to put him in jail. what that means, next. we're six months away from the election and trump is comparing to the nazis. we're back in 90 seconds. you're watching jose diaz-balart reports on msnbc. on msnbc oh, yeah, man. take it from your inner child. what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? the dodge hornet r/t... the totally torqued-out crossover.

15 past the hour. new developments in donald

trump's hush money trial. judge merchan had this warning for trump. if he continues to violate the gag order, quote, as much as i do not want to propose a jail sanction, i will if necessary. back with us live from outside the new york city courthouse, msnbc news correspondent yasmin vossoughian. yasmin, talk about this whole trump order violation that the judge dealt with early this morning. there was a direct kind of statement from the judge to the former president about what he may be forced to do. >> reporter: yeah. it was a real, i think, dramatic moment in the first 30 minutes of the day, jose, which might be setting up what we expect for the remainder of the trial and that was his decision on this gag order. it was yet another violation of the gag order. the former president having to pay another $1,000 now, topping

off at $10,000 he had to pay out in violations of these gag orders. this violation was pertaining to a comment made about the jury when the former president mentioned publicly he thought the jury was made up of 95% of democrats. the other two he did not find the president in violation of, comments made about michael cohen and david pecker as well. let me read for you specifically, jose, if i can, what the judge said about the possibility of jail time for the former president if he continues to violate the gag order. he said, jose, the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. you are the former president of the united states and possibly the next president as well. there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for you, but then he goes on to say, but i have a job to do and i will do that job and essentially choose to

incarcerate you if you keep and continue to violate the gag order. he mentions some of the difficulties in incarcerating a former president of the united states running for re-election. secret service being a complication if he was put in jail. he's taking that into understanding. it seems like judge juan merchan will not hesitate. it seems as if the former president is getting the message, along with his legal team. i think last week susan necheles said the former president would like to repost comments made. we want to ask the judge for permission if we can repost this. the judge said, it's not my job to give you permission to whether or not you can post something. if you're skeptical, if you have reservations, my advice to you is, don't do it. we'll wait and see if the former

president continues to violate the gag order or if he's getting the message that judge merchan is ready, willing and able to put him in jail if necessary. >> michael, what's your reaction to the judge's ruling? we're in such unusual times. >> we are. i thought what the judge did was smart, which was to say you can go after cohen, you can go after pecker. these are adults in the room. they're expecting this sort of attack and they've been attacked by you for a long time. essentially it's not desirable but not con item chus. the jury is another matter. i think he's doing a good job making sure trump has his free speech rights to the maximum extent possible, but he cordoned off that area that is off limits and to the extent trump keeps

touching on those areas, he'll keep getting fined. i'm doubtful he'll go to jail. the courtrooms i practice in have a lock-up behind the courtroom where courts hold prisoners coming from jail. maybe that's all that trump needs to get the seriousness of the gag orders imposed on by a serious judge. >> it's so wild. this whole thing is so wild. david, what are the options? is it feasible? >> it is. i agree with michael on this. the judge is telegraphing this because he may have to push the nuclear button, which is to put trump in jail. i don't think he is going to wear an orange jump suit and go to jail. if trump continues down this road, he'll put him in time-out. he'll put him in a room and say you stay there in an hour.

to think of him as wearing steel bracelets before trial, no. >> what are the facilities that exist? michael explained what they are. what are some of the facilities in counties throughout the country? >> a lot of courthouses have these little rooms in there. it's for people who need that time-out. it's for contempt. that could happen here eventually. the judge knows that it's a fraught move if he's going to put the former president in jail, incarceration, and maybe that's what trump wants to show grievance to his supporters because that's what they thrive on. he's telegraphing. he's saying, you're forcing my hand. please don't force my hand. maybe he sits in a room for an hour. >> stay with us. more developments from trump's hush money trial. breaking moments ago, president biden speaks to benjamin netanyahu.

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♪♪ 25 past the hour. these are pictures from moments ago. the former president leaving the courtroom there in new york city. there is a morning recess announced by the judge. mcconney is the witness and has stepped off the witness stand. the former president also leaving the courtroom right now. this is just moments ago. we continue meanwhile to follow

breaking news concerning the israel/hamas war. president biden just finished a call with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. they spoke just hours after israel ordered about 100,000 people to evacuate from eastern rafah. this was the scene inside rafah earlier today showing families packing up and leaving. the evacuation order comes as israeli officials vow to carry out an operation in the city. the announcement complicating fraught negotiations for a cease-fire deal. two sources tell nbc news the talks have not completely collapsed. joining us from tel aviv raf sanchez. what's the situation? it seems to be getting more difficult and dangerous. >> reporter: it's an extremely critical moment, jose, in this long war in these long negotiations. president biden wrapping up a phone call with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. the white house has been saying for months that it opposes a

large-scale israeli ground operation in the city of rafah where more than 1 million palestinian civilians are sheltering. now we have signs on the ground that operation may be beginning. israeli aircraft dropping leaflets with a message saying, get out. we're about to attack this area. this is part of what israel says is its commitment to destroying hamas, destroying the hamas battalions they say are hiding in rafah. the u.n. has warned a large-scale attack could be a catastrophe. now, jose, it's important to note, at this time, we have not seen any evidence of israeli ground forces actually moving into rafah. israeli officials tell me the

timing of the ground operation will be determined by the israeli government and will depend on how long it takes for the palestinian civilians to evacuate out of eastern rafah. it's possible this is the beginning of the ground offensive. it's also possible, jose, this is benjamin netanyahu's way of upping the pressure in the cease-fire negotiations. over the weekend in cairo it looked like there was progress, but this morning it appears these talks are deadlocked on a familiar issue, whether these are negotiations are about a temporary pause in the fighting or ending the war, which is what hamas wants. the cia director has been crisscrossing the region all weekend trying to breathe new life into these talks. they're at a dead lock right now. they have not collapsed at this

point. the deep hope of the families, of the hostages in israel, of the civilians in gaza is that a cease-fire can be reached and that may head off an israeli offensive in rafah. >> netanyahu announcing today that israel's going to be shutting down al jazirra. >> reporter: that's right, jose. the israeli police raiding their offices in east jerusalem. if you try to tune your television in israel right now to their channel, you get a black screen with a message in hebrew that says this channel is no longer broadcasting. israel says al jazeera is a

hamas mouth piece and it's a danger to national security. al jazeera is saying that israel is trying to suppress reporting about what is happening in gaza. local press groups in israel are condemning this move. jose? >> raf sanchez in tel aviv, thank you. up next, trump's trial in recess. we'll go back to new york city on what we heard about payments made to michael cohen. plus, the race to be donald trump's running mate over the weekend. who stood out while auditioning for the role? you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. a. mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask an asthma specialist if nucala is right for you.

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35 past the hour. we have these images just coming across our newsroom. this is the former president going back inside the courthouse and the courtroom. the morning recess apparently continues, but it looks like it's about to wrap up. there you see the former president and his attorneys heading back in. today marks less than six months until election day. this weekend many of former president donald trump's potential picks for vice president were at mar-a-lago for a donor retreat. with us is "washington post" phillip rucker and joining us david drucker senior writing at "the dispatch." phil, on saturday the rnc donor

retreat there, trump compared the biden administration to the gestapo. i don't know how to ask this question other than what the hell? >> well, you know, there's a pattern here of donald trump who has been trying to use these criminal indictments against him, not just the one in new york where he's standing trial right now, but the federal indictments relating to his misuse of classified documents and election interference to argue to his supporters that the criminal justice system is working unfairly against him, that these are politically motivated. the documents show the mountain of evidence that prosecutors have gathered to allege these crimes.

it's not a political process. it's a criminal process. this is a messaging tactic that trump and his allies have used to build support within the republican party around his 2024 candidacy. >> looks like the courtroom is back in session. the judge right now speaking to everybody in the courtroom. you know, i think, phil, i asked that question and i appreciate your thoughts on it. you know, just hitler, gestapo, ss, these are such horrible, horrendous people and what that system did, it's just -- to compare anything with that is such a -- such an insult. >> yeah. well, the persecution of nazi germany was a very different kind of affair historically.

obviously that was an assault against a whole people, against all the jewish people in many parts of europe. that's not, of course, what we see happening here with the criminal prosecution of one man, of donald trump. >> david, meanwhile, senator tim scott is apparently on the list for potential vp choices for trump. here's how he answered kristen welker's questions about whether he would accept the 2024 election results. >> just yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024? >> i look forward to president trump being the 47th president. kristen, you can ask it multiple times. >> senator, just a yes or no. >> the american people will make the decision -- >> i don't hear you committing -- >> the american people -- >> si or no is not that complicated. what do you make of it? >> it's totally not surprising

at all. you have a number of republicans competing to become trump's running mate. there's certain subjects trump is not allowing any delineation. was the 2020 election rigged or fair? what do you do if trump loses in 2024? these are areas you'll see like tim scott try to dance around the previous position, when their previous position was that trump lost the 2020 election, that there may have been fraud here and there, but nothing that rose to the level of overturning the fair and legitimate results. in any other circumstance they would probably be offended she would ask them would they accept the 2024 results if they lose, because of course they would. in this case they have to echo the leader. the leader is saying otherwise and nobody wants to be marked off the list when it's something as simple as this that he's

grading you on. >> david, a new abc news poll shows biden and trump essentially neck in neck. trump leads biden by 17 points on immigration. this morning nbc news has exclusive reporting. the democrats are preparing to go on the offense on immigration. part of that plan would include forcing votes that republicans would likely oppose, two sources say. is this an issue that democrats could successfully turn around? so far the issue of immigration has been utilized successfully by republicans to hammer at democrats. >> well, i think it depends on, number one, how do they go on offense? what's the president's agenda in this regard? number two, what are the conditions at the border? one of the reasons why donald trump polls better on this issue is because you have a lot of voters, particularly those swing

voters, soft republicans who don't want to vote for trump who want to see smaller border crossings. they think president biden's policies have led to dysfunction, chaos and lack of security at the border. if the president tightens up security and tries to put republicans on record, are they going to vote to tighten security or not, these are the sorts of things that could help biden going forward on this issue. if it's simply a matter of messaging, we'll have to see what's the message, what's the agenda and does it work? when i travelled the country and talked to republicans and democrats about the issues that are concerning voters in competitive states, that the election will hinge on,

immigration and the perceived lack of security at the southern border are one of the top things they mentioned that democrats are concerned about, even if they don't think it's fair, even if they think the president's done a good job, they concede that voters in their state don't necessarily agree. a lot of democrats would like to see the president do something about this. >> phillip rucker and david drucker, thank you both. up next, the trump trial just went back into session. what we're hearing this morning. plus, we'll look at when stormy daniels could testify. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. in a way that is meaning ful. when life spells heartburn... how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief.

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47 past the hour. back with our top story. right now jeffrey mcconney, the former trump organization controller is back on the stand in former president donald trump's new york hush money trial. we're back with yasmin vossoughian outside the courthouse. yasmin, what's happening right now? >> reporter: so it all goes back to the documents. we're looking at a query voucher summary, totaling up the amount of payments made to michael cohen from january of 2017 or september of 2017. breaking down the numbers paid out to michael cohen throughout that period. $35,000 a month in every period. an invoice submitted by michael

cohen saying according to the retainer, per the retainer, hence the $35,000 paid to michael cohen every year. the break down, $105,000 total from the revokable trust and $315,000 total from donald trump's personal account. each payment going through donald trump himself. important to lay that out, jose, the documentation and, again, going back to the importance of these documents for the jury to understand completely why it is they paid out a total of $420,000 to michael cohen over a period of a year to reimburse him and once again breaking it down to $130,000 that was going to stormy daniels. a $60,000 pay out for a bonus. then the rest of it all for taxes, totaling $420,000, jose.

>> interesting because as this breakdown was being, you know, focussed upon, there was an objection. it was just as they were talking about the donald trump revokable trust. there was an objection. a bench hearing and now they're going back to an exhibit, which is exactly the document of the revokable trust account. dave, what is the prosecution doing with this specific aspect? here's the breakdown. here's where the money came from. here's where the money was deposited. >> do you think trump knew nothing about this? the revokable trust -- his signatures are on thetrump's. if he's such a cheap stake, you think he's going to be signing checks for unspecified legal services above and beyond the actual legal services. remember, it's not $130,000

here. he was a micro manager who wants to negotiate everything downward yet this is negotiated upward. that is the logic the prosecutors are trying to close saying, see, jurors, you can now draw this conclusion. >> is that a conclusion, michael, that is becoming more and more evident or do you still think there is a large gap between that possibility? >> well, they're closing it and remember a couple of things to keep in mind about this indictment. one is that trump doesn't have to be convicted of the secondary crime. the finance federal or state finance. he just has to have the intention of doing it. one of the three crimes they said trump had the intention of violating was federal tax, sorry, federal election, state election, and new york state tax. so one of the things that

they're at with mcconney at the moment is to say that these transactions here were not showing that trump had knowledge this was an intent to violate the tax laws of new york. and so even if the juror went to find that it wasn't done solely for the purposes of protecting trump from bad election law stuff, if they could find that he was in violation of it for tax purposes, they meet their burden of proof. there are a couple of things going on over the course of this trial. election is one intent. tax is now coming forward through mcconney as another intent what trump was trying to do here. >> david, there hasn't been, as of yet, or as of right now, a specific statement of where this, where the money came from, yes, but what this money exactly was for. where do you show that?

where do you show that this money specifically went to this? >> well, it was listed as legal fees, right, and legal fees is a broad term, but it's not listed as hush money payments. that is the scam here, right? this wasn't for his legal services. even though legal fees can be seen as broad, this had nothing to do with michael cohen doing anything legal except for negotiating a hush money payment to benefit trump's campaign. that last little question is did trump know about it. did he know this was going to be falsified. here, you're having all the circumstantial evidence. of course he did. he's a micro manager. as michael said, a cheapskate. so he would not have overpaid michael cohen for these unspecified payments unless he was in on the scam. >> thank you so much for being with us. we're of course following more breaking news.

another university canceling its main commencement after weeks of pro palestinian protests. we're going to tell you which one, next. you're watching jose diaz-balart reports on msnbc. reports on msnc we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next. (vo) achieve enterprise intelligence. it's your vision, it's your verizon. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years,

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just moments ago, mike johnson called on the columbia board of trustees to remove the university's president. it comes just hours after columbia announced it is canceling its university wide commencement after weeks of protests and growing unrest over the war in gaza. antonio hilton joins us from columbia university. how did this happen? >> reporter: good morning, jose. this has been in the works for several days and in fact, nbc news was first to report last week that officials here were looking at reimagining, rethinking their commencement ceremony and that's what was announced this morning. the community wide, campus wide, sort of classic image of what graduation is supposed to look like, that has been canceled. the one that takes place on the lawn with thousands of people in their caps and gowns. instead, they're going to focus their energy on class day exercises and school specific smaller celebrations. for the students and families we've been speaking to, there are some mixed emotions here.

some saw it coming. they're not too surprised. others are a bit heartbroken. this was the case that graduated in zoom or in cars or so socially distanced that they felt they didn't get a real high school graduation and now here they are experiencing a disruption all over again. as you mentioned, the speaker, mike johnson, releasing a statement encouraging or really pushing the trustees here at columbia to ask the president to resign is just adding to the atmosphere here on campus of pressure. not just here from member of their own community, but nationwide, jose. >> and so antonio, this school specific graduation and as far as we understand, there will be some ceremony, maybe school by school, but there will be some ceremony? >> reporter: that's right. students will still get the chance to walk across the stage, get their diploma in hand.

so anyone worried about that, they will still get some of that classic tradition, but what you are not going to see is the big commencement ceremony where thousands of people all stand, rise together, move the tassles on their caps. this was made because of security concerns and students raised concerns about how many of their classmates would feel seeing their president speak after these last few weeks. >> thank you so very much. that wraps up the hour for me. you can reach me on social media and you can watch clips from our show at msnbc.com/jdb, on youtube. thank you for the privilege of your time. andrea mitchell picks up with more news right now. l picks up more news right now. right now on "andrea mitchell reports," fireworks at the trump hush money trial this morning with judge merchan threatening the former president with the possibility of jail time