of my current site is around that we're in a very dangerous not much of the danger rise. this is the same thing. you said last time we talked the way. it's actually a score districts god bless you have multi just yes because the closer but you crank comes to the fate of the most desperate potentially reckless the west is getting about powerful um extreme. his voice is uh, becoming so is quite possible that that deal. then we may see some extreme actions to postop ukraine's defense. and then obviously that will be a danger of escalation arising out those actions. what do you to see as potentially extreme actions from the side of the west? because it's clear that the ukraine is becoming more liberal in its open use of terrace tactics. but what about the wes 12? i mean, thought, oh the token anomaly is the introduction of western troops in some phone. that issue seems to be on the agenda again. there's also talk about not know slice ons.

yeah. older kind of stuff is being be discussed at the beginning of the war and which a western lead is refused to contemplate of that, that time. but that back on the agenda and you know, the but they seem to be, i'd be more i'm, we take about seriously and i'd be more multiple patch of sex. now i don't, i don't think the intention of those kind of actions troops on the banks on the ground or some kind of um, app our intervention it one bates us a lot precipitated waterboard roster. that won't be the, the intention of goals that won't be the danger that they know. because obviously russia, i don't think will, will allow those that those actions you either if, if, if there were some truths on the ground, wherever there are in your trying that will be attacked, but by russia and the same goes for a western ethel's involvement. now, uh, something like this was contemplated 2 years ago, but as you say, it says to have more precious power. i'm all home. i mean, does it have more purchase power and long uh,

people at large and why would that be the case? because i mean, it's pretty clear that whatever west and think there is a strategy, a sort of the russian army 2 years ago. the present positions were defeated. the to say the least way. it certainly doesn't have in the purchasing public opinion in the west, the old if the older public opinion died. so we have, you know, assistance as to, you know, pop popular opinions, moving in the direction of a way from one direction of peace in simple, some kind of compromise based on what the nights. so particular western countries to do, do something recklessly introduced you. it's ok to get more involved. right. and it kind of still been a no most kind of like out this. the popular opposition, black dress, certainly a restraining factor. so how strong are these voices in favor of direct tensional it's, it's difficult to say, i mean that, that does that sadly. a lot of them at the moment, i mean, they're out there. ok, counseling their accounts, voices. and, but i, you know, i think it's,

i think it was, we might assist a popup of this conflict from the point of view of the west proxy why russia has been a kind of, you know, assistant escalation, one escalation of the, of a. so they've done it so often has almost become the actual so i think i, i, i'll be, i'll be shocked by will be surprised if they types of escalators that do you take this escalation as i calculated tactic. in other words, when people uh raise a bit and to do they actually understand, are they conscious of what they're doing and you know, they possible a reply from okay i, i think it's, it's partly a calculated tactic, but i think it's also an emotional advice. talk to because they've taught themselves into a position, but i basically sounds there right, retro it, i really believe that if they lose, do you cry, new freshman wins in the ukraine is going to be the end of the west as low as we now know. wait, they'd be to the, it won't know, it won't know, it won't happen. and that's important that we know it can be done. actually poly

into that, that, that disco. so no, no, do you train, you train? what would be a huge blow tonight? so as to west to west for stage it will be critical be cried before highs of prices rise. not but no i, i think the west of all just we know at night so we are the west and palace. i think what will remind, unless the wall goes on and on. yes. and russia kind of tried saving, multi p g or frank rush. it comes to occupy the whole decry and then to walk continues, you know, so yeah, in that kind of extreme situation. yeah. that, that then possibly we all look at the a much more laptop elliptic outcome. let's discuss something that you and a number of other western schoolers propose twist and found that is a compromise to this war. in fact, hughes suggested in one of your recent articles that budget reports and can solve this more by negotiating a peace deal that includes ukraine's membership of mater. why do you believe that this proposal, which is the underlying premise for, for this call?

so it has any complying power not only in moscow, but 1st and foremost in keys and in washington, the if there's going to be negotiated into the peace settlement. then you've got this going to be some kind of western security, a guarantee of what's left of the ukraine started off to the war, right? that's the 1st one. it's got that the 2nd part is that night, so on the west of the politically and retire this hardly a what find it very, very difficult. difficult to back away from accepting you, trying into nights and members in the even under conditions dictated by russia. that's the 2nd and the 3rd thing um, yep. strategically having ukraine in they say what have advantages from the west and public view? it would mean that you have your trade in lights. i was left of it west, a new crime presented like what, what, what would cost you some kind of buffer some with russia. ok, this beth as own would be the militarize zone that we know when they took by c,

there's no nuclear weapons. all kind of restrictions, but nevertheless, you'd have an independent pro western nathan member viewpoint. actually the public folks that are real kinds of good reasons for so yeah, the west united states and i talked to it except such a deal. now it kept mentioning, this phrase, ukraine or what's left of it. and i think that's the, you know, the, the crux of the problem and a number of russian analysts indirectly driven there because they claim that the, what's, what is now being decided on the battlefield is where the boundary between russian and west and security a parameter will lie, whether it's formal or informal, and clearly a must go, is interested in pushing it further into ukraine. but i'm not sure it's wants to push it as far as, let's say, western ukraine of it. it's very hostile and add to russian population. now, based on history based on the current sentiment, where addressing done boundary could live organically for, if there is such

a term as organic boundary between russia in the west, i think as of now the natural boundary would be um, acceptance by you cried in the west of russia, the corporation of crime, and until the before, before, additional provinces about that and why that's the only absolutely for cause and fost rush. why is that this guy rushed those? those territories apart? also part of a problem that's all right in the house, you choose your dad. so that's, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's the minimum. how far you go beyond that. yeah, it depends on, on the, on the war and, okay. some people argue that that may be a huge goes far as hawk of, as far as a desa problem with that is yes, that may will, in a way that may will be a natural cause. he started school cultural political badly, but it will be enormously costly. for russia to actually occupied stock of down to

the other desa. okay. but the bottom line is i, i don't see russia expanding any further into your cry done under the any. but now it also suggested that in the criminal have words to contemplate such a concession ukraine and it's western beckers would have to give a quote, cost iron commitments to ukraine's permanent demilitarization or beat within the framework of nathan membership. and the 1st of all, i am not sure of the russians believe in any degree of firmness of, uh, quote unquote, the western commitments. but on top of that, you know, demilitarized within the nature of framework, isn't it a bit like, i don't know, it's a writer with wipers, but well behaving. mice, i mean, like, uh, even if and your brain is the militarized and like it, if not to ukraine, that is a problem for russia. it's beta. what we're doing there is of kind of press of this kind of green because it goes when um, east germany was united with west then became a spell and you have the kind of thought of knights of the agreement was the friend

at that point of the tree that rush hour to soviets units, best restaurants, but only the danger and show up at the pain was that there will be no nights or expansion into easter nichols have light from nature. nature, then expanded res joe to very closely expand. it is a boating state suppose to add another country side for all precedents for the conditions on that one on the, on the, on the on nights those night nitrogen expansion. yeah. now i think there's also a more recent precedent. that's the support the your case, the the case of char k, a number of freshman leaders, including quarters himself, said that having trick is a part of nature, is not that bad for russia because it contains that country, which is an actual competitor, original competitor for russia, and i can see that the logic being applied to your plan, but i struggle to understand why i would need to want of uh, you know, drive aged uh, highly traumatized uh, very limply angry country or whatever left with as part of it. so no to realize the

originally important point. the, you know, i think for the russian polite view, it's not ukraine's membership. the site doesn't match at all. i have a match out. it was, it was a nighttime military built up. and they use the ukraine as a tool for wash out. so i so like if you try and watch lift, it becomes part of a night of the under difficult conditions. then it's not such a it's not such a frightening development. we asked a question about, you know, why should this issue a process of looking at the trust cost both ways, you know, this is trust issues and both sides. and the only way to, to work through the issue is to actually mike mike, mike agreements and see what happens and try to make those agreements like you have to, you know, as the rest of the like to say, uh, yeah, you know, trust, but very far but i ask you about the slightly different aspect of it. why would may to one, i mean, i understand native logic of having ukraine as you know, sort of send me affiliated member of its alliance and using it as

a sort of battering ram against pressure. but if they actually have to take responsibility for your cranes, you know, angry intentions for rebuilding it for even providing it with somebody for search. why would they need it? because they're losing all the benefits of their policy. i'm assuming all the cost high. i, i think for political reasons, i mean that that's why i'm not 50 thought. yeah. my, i well, why do i could come forward with this suggestion that you, craig could become a member of nato on to certain conditions that could be part of to the i was trying to think of a lie to police equally given the what the west, the way out, politically, to back off from, for the forever war with russia forever. brook brooks about that, but that was my kind of kind of reasoning. so i think, you know, yeah, it would be the know most kind of challenges and all of us from all kinds of discussion, i'm sure that we play the voices, it would make us, i know we shouldn't, shouldn't do this. but i think for political reasons, nights i would find it very different, very difficult to actually to have his back on your crime completely and forever. i

refused to, to allow an inter membership. yeah, quote, professor over. so i hope you are right on that. but even though i'm, you know, to some extent it's uh, you know, facing the consequences of, of your own polio. yeah. like it's no, i'm not making a prediction error or prophecy. i'm not sure what's gonna happen if i it's, i'm likely, well i, i know what's gonna happen right now because we're going to take a very short break, but we'll be back in just a few moments state you in the,

the, the extra ones, the parts best geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history of university college park. now professor roberts, before the break, we talked about the russian rationale and they just logic. let's talk about the brain right now. and i think that's a very interesting case study because it's hard to find another country, the size of your brand, that's what sold, eagerly assumed the role of

a client states without the goal shading any developmental security guarantees for itself. and i mean, even israel, for example, and other clients they is very showed about um, you know, ensuring its own base. but the frame sort of threw himself into the western embrace completely without the, you know, asking actually from watch how do you understand the calculus of kids here? yeah, i guess it's just, this is the most difficult off at 6 most difficult for me. i mean for you to once, that is why you crime shows because it did add on what still chooses to fight to for, to fight on. it obviously is to do with the power of ukrainian nations. and i mean, did you motional power as well as the political 5 you for international? that'd be one say, i think secondly, there was this cuz fife belief in the west,

in west sensible. i mean, i mean, western power says i persuaded themselves that they could, they could, they could win this war in some, uh, its in some form. okay. now having tried that actually effectively last last a was just um, they're just playing on and waiting for something, something, something, something happened something to, to turn up. but look, um yeah, i could probably talk about public opinion or if what is the opinion you're trying to shift as well? well, the opinion dice i've seen is that there's a gradual shift. some of the majority of the ukrainians leaving in the areas coverage occupied bought by you guys who want a compromise space. i think secondly, you know, you know, the d e a training and the political studies normally 5 i yeah. that they're out there. all kind of elements we've been established, or maybe on the fringes of it, who would be prepared to actually that the negotiate facing for see piece of this is a basis is made the best solution for you right now. so give me a 9 to talk to,

to, we'll be introduced aside. let's just have a personal question that have ukranian votes and your grant is a very interesting collective psyche to me because i think it's has both very large entitlement and a very large and 3 or it's a complex. you mentioned the, you know, the power of its national was meant to me is a little bit like me there for, is there any to kill, it's on her own children because she didn't get some things. and historically, i think this, you are a, was channeled very conveniently on to russia. but once you claim becomes part of the west, aren't you concerned that they so the of the target of its blames. i'll shift of what you described, this actually quite typical phenomena of both state nationalism. and i know that ukraine is not particularly small side, but it's just the most i associate getting smaller. okay, so why is this most i've associated with a, a big state and quite often what you know, what you, what you described this sense of,

in combination of in type sense. we talked about and inferior article back. very, very typical of the nationalism of all of us, most i so you know like that, that's not the same. that's not unusual, but many outer space. a sort of middle space like char kit is around. even poland will pull into a lesser extent that they've been quite skilful in playing you know, big powers against one another. and this is what i want to ask you about. because i think leadership or the cultivation of elisa is a very interesting subject because it takes time, it takes such a national hardship to produce the kinds of leaves cool on the sand. they've dynamic psychological and developmental dynamics from that population. but also whereas we, enough to position the country within the regional and global context to, you know, printers, benefits for, for the people. yeah. but that's, that's what happened for you. cried was thoughtful. so for uh, you know, for the 1st up to 25 years of independence of crime. that's exactly the gaming

ukraine. like really? yes, absolutely. until until 2014, when you get this definitive kind of split upon a few prime hopes definitively for the west and dice when we don't hear back, professor roberts, i think you're going to have some of the best conditions post soviet collapse. they had some of the best economy is they have pretty wide industrial base. they have a, you know, woodland, they have a lot of people. they have the good graces of the west. they also have the good have the good, the basis of pressure because russian was eager to keep them within the, if not within the, within the, it's all the done it within its economic environment. i'm here based into waste it all on the some, you know, done something that, that, that, the, them, that those i'd love corruption and also that they also kind of hide divisions if the political divisions didn't die. what that meant was to make you cry and never transitioned out of the ninety's. the kind of coyote politics are not discontinued

or the old away for the articles to go see the, the new crime that i never had a breach. and tracy come and fix some stability is the power all site that you know, some old and patrol and some, and some direct is a very unfortunate effect, so, so concisely. right? but going back to the point where i think that once to will, if was i was to was either if you have was left of your train, comes part of the west is up for like it's already about the west. and that's all kinds of jobs. i've reviewed crime usually they kinda got upset on the west of that point that they're going to have a very, very different view and feeding tools to west when they see what has happened to the country that they have the full this proxy will on be around the office on be off was enough stuff to shoot, kind of troll the shoes. the average shoot last a lot. i'm actually, i don't say they're going to play russian and the russians like they're good is begging to blame this so called western allies in order to be

a self sufficient country. they have to accept the, you know, for me, one's blame on, on you for me twice, blame on me. i mean they, sooner or later they will have to extend our own responsibility for that whole investigate destiny. and, you know, also develop some acumen and shrewdness in dealing with the nature of that. but do you see developing i, i'm, i may be maybe not, i'm not sure i pull up to be a self sufficient country with any kind of life. some of the western alliance. yeah . but but they oh, shoot for it's really dependent cut. they need, they need temporary. at least they need to keep a desktop or at least access to a desk. probably no. so i need to get the symbolic reasons. they need to keep hawk up as well, right? the most go now in the distance they, i think that we know that they're not there yet. but the prospect of a major military defeat for all your training metrics, labs, which get a fraction, the russian taken of a desperate hawk. i was,

was all part of the rest of some of these new friends that actually might shop to mean to actually coming to their senses and to enter in a, make them making the data right. i, i give, can you just give me up on this more? right. i'm making the necessary concessions a, to the restaurant we are very, are very good. and i think historical argument, because historically russians have, i said, have had the foresight of how you should treat your enemies in order to create, you know, conditions for loss and peace. it was the case both with the french and the, you know, with the germans as well. i think that's something that the, i think that's another very important part combined inside the, the kind of argument behind. but i'm putting that, you know, that russia should make this very cheers concession of allowing ukraine or pop you're trying to become, become a member. and i to understand conditions is because i, i still russia want, has

a wants to have the been having an attitude told you, you prying on ukrainians as, as, as, as a people. and if that actually truth holds, fletcher wants to reconstruct his relations with you cried new state, i would do you frightening people on a collaborative friend friendship. i re recreate some com, some furniture neighborhood, the anything, any type of us anything got you know like that then that, that, that then i need to, they need to give something to you crying last night about likely yes. the score and different thing i remember hear you say they need to give something to your credit and like me to membership. and what i'm arguing for is that they have to consciously or recognize ukrainian dignity. and that's if the ukrainian state is to exist as a stage, not just as a some fragment of made it, but as a stain that has some potential for self sufficiency them if it needs searching and geographical by a, by the fact that i have the impression that the list, the majority of russian public opinion that political repeatedly available would be

on that page at. okay. that are a minority if you're russian nationalist suits the world, wants to go thoughts of, of that. but i think that's where that, that's where the sentiment is. michael's essential, that's one thing, strategy and politics. it is another und russia puts in the paper, russian people today. i'm not going to consider the signature of what you get a compromise, the russian secure, but it's not good that we came to them because it's not just about the ukraine. i mean, for russia either to rush, i cannot have a ukrainian sensibilities at the top of its had bigger. at the end of the day, we are all talking about the palm of european secure just structure is out of here . written about, as you said, that is the last thing settlement of this cost race with require creating a system that would contain rather them into bait conflicts. and i think the russians that didn't that best trying to negotiate some way out of the predicament with nato. they weren't successful. washington said no. is there anything possibly

that's good. the 1st way to change its perspective. i thought i do, i think the war. yeah. but ukraine in the west, the fate in the war. this, it might affect your trying to. and that perspective on the basis of your crime can become part of nights on certain conditions. but that would need to be an overarching framework of common european security to act as a consignment with that. and as a 1st, i thought a guarantee definitely, you know, for, for 5 sites. yeah, i mean, you know, the russians actually not russian for the summers before the, i think actually been fine since the 9 teams to strategy to create collective european security structures. including the soviet union, including including in russia, but i've always kind of like stumbled against the fundamental fact that the in the west roster was be seen as a rival in that. and when the apartment and i, i look for it and it's quite track of these types and it may actually take this will this tragic war to actually arrive a situation where there can be some kind of sensible negotiation about career

creation. come a common security sized by a professor robinson. this is going to be my last question for that to happen. what the west will have to part with is the idea of that. you know, it controls evolves into world economic, logical, cultural, everything else. and there is an opinion in russia, that's what russians are fighting against here. it is not just the, you know, part of your advantage. secure destructor, that fighting and goes 500 years of western dominance. we just 1st and foremost, based on the western military dominance and the regions in both the soviet union in the 20th century. and i think russian more recently has managed to not necessarily arrival, but at least undermine if the west degrees to any sort of negotiations with russia . what does that effectively mean that it's me over the world? the shutter is, i mean like, uh, it will have to you right off i, i, that's a lot to be set for what you've done,

what the point you just make. and it brings us back to the point. you're beginning of the, the discussion. why, when you also, we are those to the situation to take the most and it's, it's dangerous is, gets even more most i just found a way to get through both tags. because in the west or at least a substantial since 6 of the west is not prepared to give up on that self image of it itself on western new jermel. it's not always the self image it say we, i know, you know, it's turn the superiority. it's not constructed, what's got on you crying just being there any exist to ensure that batch or the if the, if you cry loses the night to lose, you knew right then that going to lose that domination. the dad, germany on the west, a place of the world. and that's why the advertising, the most extreme measures to above a, that a good outcome. so, so that's when it comes down to it, you know, the fundamental obstacle that you know to any, the swell of thousands line. and we've rochelle, with boots and what it might do, it lies with, with the west. and what is it actually capable of changing is fundamental

welfare. any septic for septic? it's a different, a different set of relationship with the prime refresher and in europe as a whole movement. and uh, i would have to that, that ultimately what the west as the finding against is not the russian. it's fighting history and history. it has certain objective trends, said that even, you know, the west can know it's and again, but the, let's leave it for some other time. it's been great talking to you again. thank you . thanks very much. thank you for watching cope to sir. again, it was a part of the or the

water is part of the blog post that isn't a deep su of us and that in the word or is it something deeper, more complex might be present? let's stop without please. is that spelled out of the the i'm not sure come on this as they do show a good this things. let me ask him that way. see me is the non smoker in your mind restored enough to money? so stuff with interested in show eric a buy a demo print that issue in your store or do i have to wake up with one of our that's not i was myself, of course the trailer span that we could buy them. so i didn't want to buy right.

uh yeah, yeah, for the most just what i want to move over here, but as of now, particularly the group didn't come around quite inflate and well this is crazy. nice not kind of this is it? absolutely. i'd rather proof of an issue with the much just isn't good. that this is the key. we will send you the wrong. i'm pretty good. feel interest worse than you're going you. why am i still not sure what my speeds are still going?

yes. sort of the, [000:00:00;00] the pay off the campus us to forward these attempt to break up some of the pro, publish opinion demonstrations have taken root in universities across the country. take off, but yeah, huge role shut us, all the zeros operations in the country are leaving as a quite soon national security of catawba. these outlet says that the move across is free speech at vows to repeat the putting his foot on it all over again. joe biden finds himself in the hot water and ask the whites houses