the, the welcome to was a part treyjen, entire tree total security, or additions for peace, unless the settlement of the premium conflict with required difference given takes from each of the parties. but 1st, they would probably have to part with the own sense of righteousness does the historical moment or the nature of this conflict allow for this or to discuss that . i'm now joined by jessica roberts emeritus professor of history of the university college park. professor roberts, it's always a great pleasure, personal pleasure to talk to you. but on top of that, i'm far to in the some academic exchanges between western and russian scores continue as this crisis continues to escalate. where do you think we are in a, in this the battle of what stage? the conflict tests taken? i think um my, my, my current phase around that we're in a very dangerous not much of the danger royce. this is the same thing. you said

last time we talk what it's actually a score districts, god bless you have multi just yes because the closer but thank you. crying comes to the fate of the most desperate potentially reckless. the west is again about powerful um, extreme. his voice is becoming so it is quite possible that we may see some extreme actions to both stop ukraine's defense. and then obviously that will be a danger of escalation arising out those actions. what do you to see as potentially extreme actions from the side of the west? because it's clear that the ukraine is becoming more liberal in its open use of terrace tactics. but what about the wes 12? i mean, thought, oh the token anomaly is the introduction of western troops in some phone. that issue seems to be on the agenda again. there's also i talk about not know slice ons . yeah. old kind of stuff was being be discussed at the beginning of the war and

which yeah. west the latest, the refuse to contemplate of that, that time. but that back on the agenda and you know, the but they seem to be, i mean more and we talk about seriously and, and that'd be more multiple patch of sex. now, i don't, i don't think the intention of those kind of actions troops on the boots on the ground or some kind of um, app our intervention it one bates, us, a lot precipitated water, was rushed to that won't be the, the intention of goals that will be the danger that they know it, because obviously russia, i don't think will, will allow those that those actions you, i'd wonder if, if, if there was some troops on the ground, wherever you crying that will be attacked, but by russia and the same goes for western apples involvement now. uh, something like this was contemplative 2 years ago, but as you say, it says to have more precious power. i'm all home. i mean it does have have more purchase power and long uh, people at large. and why would that be the case? because i mean, it's pretty clear that whatever west and think there is a strategy,

a sort of the russian army 2 years ago. the presuppositions were defeated, the to say the least way. it certainly doesn't have in the purchasing public opinion in the west. the old, if the older public opinion died. so we have, you know, as a suggest, you know, pop popular opinions, moving in the direction of a way from one direction of peace in simple some kind of compromise based on what the nights. so particular western countries to do to do something rack those lines just you, it's ok to get more involved threatening cause it's still been a no most kind of like out this the popular opposition, black dress, certainly a restraining factor. so, how strong are these voices in favor of directing french law? it's, it's difficult to say, i mean that that's beside the law of them at the moment. i mean, there are, there are accounts that there accounts, voices, and i, you know, i think so, i think it was, we might assist a whole ton of this conflict from the point of view of the west proxy why russia

has been a kind of, you know, persistent escalation, one escalation off to the other, so they've done it so often it's almost become the actual so i think i, i, i'll be, i'll be shocked but won't be surprised if i types of escalators that do you take this escalation as i calculated tactic in other words, when people raise a bit and see it, do they actually understand? are they conscious of what they're doing and you know, they possible a reply for i, i think is it, it's partly a calculated tactic. but i think it's also a very emotionally bice tactics because they've taught themselves into a position. but i basically sums that retro it. i really believe that if they lose the new cried new for us, your wins and the ukraine is going to be the end of the western world as we now. you know, if i wanted to sell it tonight, why don't know it wants? no, it wants type and it's important that we don't to be done actually poly into that that, that disco so no, no, do you train, you train?

what would be a huge blow tonight? so add for west to west for stage it will be critical. be cried to be or has of prices rise? not but no i, i think the west of all just we know at night. so we are the west and palace of i think what will remind unless the wall goes on. yes. and russia penetrates even multi plan to frank rush. it comes to occupy the whole deep. right. and then the wall, continuation of yeah. and that kind of extreme situation. yeah. that, that, that then possibly we are looking at the a much more laptop elliptic outcome. let's discuss something that you and the number of other western schoolers proposed recent fan data is a compromise to this war. in fact, you suggested in one of your recent articles that budget reports and could stop this war by negotiating a peace deal that includes ukraine's membership of mater. why do you believe that this proposal, which is the underlying premise for, for this call? so it has any complying power not only in moscow,

but 1st and foremost in keys and in washington, the if the is going to be negotiated into the peace settlement, then that you got this going to be some kind of western security. a guarantee of was left of the ukraine started off to the water, right? that's the 1st, but it's got the 2nd part is that night. so on the west of the politically it retire this hardly a. what funded? very, very difficult to difficult to back away from accepting you, trying into night to the members even even under conditions dictated by russia. that's the 2nd. and the 3rd thing um yep. strategically having ukraine in they say what type of advantages from the west and by the beautiful it would mean that you have your trade in lights. i was left of it west, a new crime presented like what, what, what would cost you some kind of office on with russia. ok. this process would be the militarize zone that we know when they took by say there's no nuclear weapons, all kind of restrictions. but nevertheless, you'd have an independence pro western nathan member viewpoint. actually the public

folks that are real kinds of good reasons for um yeah, the west united states and i talked to it except such a deal. now it kept mentioning, this phrase, ukraine or what's left of it. and i think that's the, you know, the, the crux of the problem and a number of russian analysts indirectly driven they are because they claim that was what is now being decided on the battlefield is where the boundary between russian and west and security of parameter will lie, whether it's formal or informal, and clearly a mosque was interested in pushing it further into your crane. but i'm not sure if the wants to push it as far as, let's say, western new creative. it's very hostile and add to russian population. now, based on history based on the current sentiments where addressing done boundary eclipse live organically for, if there is such a term as organic boundary between russia in the west. i think as of now the

natural boundary would be um, acceptance by you cried in the west of russia, the corporation of crime it until the default before additional provinces. and that in any way, that's the only option that leads to call and fost rush. why is that this guy rush, those, those territories apart? also part of a problem that's all right in the house you choose your. yeah. so that's that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's the minimum. how far you go beyond that. yeah, it depends on, on auto, on the war. okay. some people argue that that may be your east coast far as hawk gulf. and as far as a desa, probably that is yes, that may will, in a way that may, will be a natural cause historical cultural political badly. but it will be enormously costly for russia to actually occupied stock of down to the end, the end of the desa. okay, but the bottom line is i, i don't see russia expanding any further into your cry done under the need for now

. it also suggested that in the criminal record, to contemplate such a concession ukraine and it's western beckers, would have to give the quote, cost iron commitments to ukraine's permanent demilitarization or beat within the framework of nathan membership. and the 1st of all, i am not sure of the russians believe in any degree of firmness, alpha, quote unquote, with western commitments. but on top of that, you know, demilitarized within the nature of framework, isn't it a bit like, i don't know, it's a writer with wipers, but well behaving. mice, i mean, like, uh, even if and ukraine is the militarized and like it's not the ukraine, that is a problem for russia. it's data. what, what do i do? there is a kind of press of this kind of green because because when um, east germany was united with west job name became a spell and you have the kind of thought nights of the agreement was the friend at that point uh to the rush hour associates units, best restaurants, but it's only the danger ensure,

but the pain was that there will be no nights or expansion into each to. i mean it goes to have light from nature. nature, then expand the trees. jo, do a cause, expand it is a voltage state. suppose that uh, add another country side for all precedents for the conditions on that one on, on the, on the on nights those night nitrogen expansion. yeah. now i think there is also a more recent precedent. that's the support the your case, the case of char k, a number of fresh leaders including quarters himself, said that having trick is a part of nature is not that bad for russian because it contains that culture which is a and that troll competitor original competitor for russia and i can see that the logic being applied to your plan, but i struggled to understand why i would need to want. i know is i've aged highly traumatized, a very lengthly angry country or whatever laughter with as part of it's, you know, to realize you're actually important point there. you know,

i think for the russian point of view, it's not ukraine's membership. the site that match at all, i have a match out. it was, it was a nighttime military build up and then use the ukraine as a tool of choice app. absolutely. so if you're trying to watch lift, it becomes part of a night of the under different conditions. then it's not such a it's not such a frightening development. and we asked a question about, you know, why should this issue a process of looking at the trust cost both, why so this is trust issues on both sides. and the only way to, to work through the issue is to after might make, make agreements and see what happens and try to make those are great mistakes. that's what you know as the rest of the like to say, uh, yeah, you know, the trust but very far, but i ask you about the slightly different aspect of it. why would may to want, i mean, i understand native logic of having ukraine as you know, sort of send me affiliated member of its alliance and using it as a sort of battering ram again special. but if they actually have to take

responsibility for your cranes, you know, angry intentions for rebuilding it for even providing it with someone for search. why would they need and because they're losing all the benefits of their policy, i'm assuming all the cost high. i, i think for political reasons, i mean that that's what i'm up at the thought. yeah. my eyes. well, why do i could come forward with this suggestion? that you, craig could become a member of night to under certain conditions that could be part of the day. i was trying to think of a lie to police equally given the what the west, the way out politically to back off from for the, for of the war with russia for the abrupt proxy. what that. but that was my kind kind of reasoning. so i think, yeah, yeah, it would pay them no most kind of challenges and almost from all kinds of discussion, i'm sure that we plan the voices who would like to assign a we shouldn't, shouldn't do this, but i think for political reasons, nights i would find it very different, very difficult to actually to have his back on your crime completely and refused to, to allow an instant inter membership. you quote,

professor over. so i hope you are right on that. but even though i'm, you know, to some extent it's uh, you know, facing the consequences of, of your own polio. you're saying it's no, i'm not making a prediction error or prophecy. i'm not sure what's gonna happen if i it's, i'm likely, well i, i know what's gonna happen right now because we are going to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments extension. the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except we're so shorter is a conflict with the 1st law show you then to the patient. we should be very careful about visual intelligence at the point,

obviously is to great trust rather than ship the barriers with artificial intelligence. we have somebody in the theme and the robot must protect this phone. existence was on the extra ones, the parts best. geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history up here university college courts now professor roberts, before the break, we talked about the russian rationale and they just logic. let's talk about the brain right now. and i think that's a very interesting case study because it's hard to find another country,

the size of your brain. that's what so eagerly assumed the role of a client's faith without the go shading any developmental a security guarantees for itself. and i mean, even israel, for example, uh, in other clients they is very showed about um, you know, ensuring its own base. but the frame sort of threw himself into the western embrace completely without the, you know, asking is actually from watch how do you understand the, the calculus of camp here. yeah, i did. it is, this is the most difficult off at 6 most difficult for me. i mean, for you to once, that is why you crime shows because it did and on what still chooses. uh, yeah, 2 foot to a to fights on it obviously is to do with the power of ukrainian nations. and i mean, did you motional power as well as the political 5 you for international? that'd be one thing. i think secondly, that was this. um,

cuz fife belief in the west, in western supposed 99 in western power so that i persuaded themselves that they could, they could, they could with this war in some, uh its in some form. okay. now having tried that, actually effectively lost lost the wall that just um, they're just playing on and waiting for something, something, something something to happen, something to, to turn up beloved. um yeah, i could probably pick them up public opinion or opinion and you're trying to shift as well. well, the opinion dice i've seen is that there's a gradual shift towards the majority of the ukrainians leaving in the air is currently occupied, bought by you, correct? who want a compromise space? i think secondly, you know, you know, d ukrainian, the police establish normally 5 i yeah. that they're out there. all kind of elements we've been established, or maybe on the fringes of it, who would be prepared to actually that the negotiate facing for see patients as a basis is made the best solution for you right now. so give me

a 9 to perspective that will be introduced aside. let's just have a personal question that have ukranian votes and your credit is a very interesting collective psyche to me because i think it's has both very large entitlement and a very large material orders are complex. you mentioned the, you know, the power of its national is meant to me is a little bit like me there who is the right to kill. it's on her own children because she didn't get some things. and historically, i think this, you are a, was channeled very conveniently on to russia. but once you clean becomes part of the west, aren't you concerned that they so the of the target of its blames will shift of what you just write this actually quite typical phenomena of small state nationalism. and i know that your crime is not particularly small side, but it's just the most i associate getting smaller. okay, so why is this most i associated with a, a big state. and quite often what,

you know, what you, what you described this sense of in combination of in type, since we talked about and inferior article, but very, very typical of the nationalism. oh, i'll go out of a full size. so, you know, like that, that's not the same. that's not unusual. but many other states, uh, sort of middle space like turkey is around. even poland won't pull into a lesser extent, that they've been quite skilful in playing, you know, big powers against one another. and this is what i want to ask you about because i think leadership or the cultivation of belief is a very interesting subject because it takes time, it takes such a national hardship to produce the kinds of belief. cool, understand the dynamic, psychological and developmental dynamics of that population. but also whereas we, enough to position the country within the original and global context. you know, printers benefits for, for the people. yeah. but that's, that's what happened for you. cried was thoughtful. so for uh, you know,

for the 1st 25 years of independent crime, that's exactly the gaming ukraine. like really? yes, absolutely. until until 2014, when you get this definitive kind of split upon a few crime ups definitively for the west. and that's when we don't hear back, professor roberts, i think you're going to have some of the best conditions, post soviet collapse. they had some of the best economies. they had pretty wide industrial base. they have a, you know, good land. they have a lot of people. uh, they have the good graces of the west. they also have the good, have the good, the braces of russia because russian was eager to keep them within the if not within the, within, it's all been done within its economic uh, environments. and yeah, they seem to waste it all on the some, you know, done something that, that, that, that was done that outside law corruption and also that they also kind of hide the provisions. if the political divisions didn't die. what that meant was to be

a crime, never transitioned out of the ninety's, the kind of coyote politics of the 90s continued or the old away for the articles to go see the new crime that i never had a breach and tries to come and fix some stability is the power of the site, you know, some old and control and some, and some direct is a very unfortunate effect. so, so concise view, right? but going back to the point where i think that once to will, if was i was to most of the, if you have lost left of your train becomes part of the west is up for, it's already about the west. and that's the construct i for you to your crime using that kind of going to sell it on the west left like that that, that going to have a very, very different view and feeding tools to west when they see what has happened to the country that they have the full this proxy will on be around the office on be off was and if somebody shoot kind of troll the shoes, done that which huge loss a lot. i'm actually, i don't say they're going to play rush from the russians like that. they're gonna

blame that the so called west analogy in order to be a self sufficient country. they have to accept the, you know, for me was blame on, on you for me twice, blame on me. i mean, the sooner or later they will have to accept our own responsibility for that whole investigate destiny and you know, also develop some acu man and shrewdness in dealing with the nature of it. but do you see developing i, i'm, i may be maybe not, i'm not sure i pull up to be a self sufficient country of any kind of life. some of the western alliance. yeah. but, but they oh, sure for you to really depend on what they need, they need that very, at least i need to keep a desk or at least access to a desk or the probably those, the symbolic races they need to keep talk of as well. the most go now is the quantity of whatever the distance there. i think that you know that they're not there yet. but the prospect of a major military defeat for all your training ministry flats, which get a fraction,

a russian taken of a desperate hawk of it was all part of the rest of some of these new friends that actually might shop to mean to actually coming to their senses and to and doing a make them making the data. right. and i give, can you just give me up on this more, right. i'm making the necessary concessions to rush. so you're very, you're very good. the nice thing, historical argument, because historically russians have, i said, have had the foresight of how you should treat your enemies in order to create, you know, conditions for lasting piece. it was the case both with the french and the, you know, with a gentleman says, well, i think that's something that's uh, i think that's another very important part to walk inside the kind of argument behind. but i'm putting that, you know, that russia should make this very shoot concession of allowing ukraine or pop you're trying to become, become a member. and i to understand conditions is because i, i still russia want, has

a wants to, has the been having an attitude told you you prying on ukrainians as, as, as, as a people. and if that actually truth holds, fletcher wants to reconstruct his relations with your crime. you stay with you frightening people on collaborative friend, friendship by the re recreate, sometimes the neighborhood, your neighborhood, the anything, any baby us, anything got you know like that then that, that, that, and i need to, they need to give something to you crying like symbolically yes. the he is quite different thing, i'm in the hear you say they need to give something to your credit and like made a membership. and what i'm arguing for is that they have to consciously or recognize ukrainian dignity. and that's if the ukrainian state is to exist as a stage, not just as a song fragment of made it, but as a stain that has some potential for self sufficiency down. if it needs searching geographical by says, i have the impression that at least the majority of russian public opinion and

political repeatedly available would be on that page at okay. the minority, if the russian nationalist suits the world wants to go thoughts of, of that. but i think that's with that, that's where the sentiment is. michael's essential, that's one thing, strategy and politics. it is another on russia approaching the pay progression. people don't, i'm not going to come say anything. we try to get a compromise the russian secure, but it's not good that we came to that because it's not just about the ukraine. i mean, for russia either to rush, i cannot have a ukrainian sensibilities at the top of its had bigger. at the end of the day, we are all talking about the palm of european, secure just structure as are you reading about it? you said that is uh, the last thing stephan mendham, disconsolate with require creating a system that would contain rather than incubate conflicts. and i think the russians did that best trying to negotiate some way out of their predicament with nato. they weren't successful. washington said no. is there anything possibly

that's good. the 1st way to change is perspective. i don't want to was. yeah, but ukraine in the west if the in the war is it might affect your trying to. and that perspective on the basis of your client can become part of nights, also conditions. but that would need to be an overarching framework of common european security to act as a consignment with that. and as a 1st, i thought a guarantee definitely for, for both sides. yeah, i mean, you know, the russians actually did not russian for the subways before the, i think actually been fine since the 19th to stretchy, to create collective therapy. and the security structures, including the soviet union, is going to include your rush up. i've always kind of like stumbled against the fundamental fact that the in the west rosters be seen as a rival in that and we department and i, i look for it and it's quite track of these types and it may actually take this will this tragic war so actually arrive

a situation where there can be some kind of sensible negotiation about career gracing. come a common security space for professor robinson. this is going to be my last question for that to happen. what the west they'll have to part with is the idea of that. you know, it controls the events into world economics, idea, logical, cultural, everything else. and there is an opinion in russia, that's what russians are fighting against here. it is not just the, you know, part of europe and secure destructor that fighting against 500 years of western dominance, which is 1st and foremost based on the western military and dominance and the wages and both the soviet union in the 20th century. and i think russian more recently has managed to not necessarily arrival, but at least undermine if the west degrees to any sort of negotiations with russia. what does that effectively mean? that if somebody over the world, the shutter is, i mean like, uh, it will have to you right off i, i does a lot to me. so that's what you've got,

what the point you just made. and it brings us back to the point that you're beginning of the, the discussion. why when y'all, so we, i, those are the situation to take the moment. i think it's, it's dangerous. this gets even more multi i just, i found a bunch of guessing both actors because in the west or at least a substantial since 6 of the west is not prepared to give up on that self image of it itself. on western who jermel, it's not always the self image. it says we understand though it's the superiority, it's not constructed. what's got on you crying just being there any exist to ensure that that's all the if the, if you cry lose is the night to lose, you knew right. then you're gonna lose that organization the that germany on the west place of the world. and that's why the advertising, the most extreme measures to above a, that a good outcome. so, so that's when it comes down to it, you know, the fundamental obstacle that you have to any, the swell of thousands lined with russia, always booty, the what it might do it lies with,

with the west. and what is it actually capable of, of trying to use fundamental? well, if you have any septic accepting it, a different, a different set of relationships with the prime refresher and in europe as a whole movement. and i would add to that, that ultimately what the west as the fighting against is not the russian. it's fighting history and history. it has certain objective trends 10 that even the west can know it's and again, but the less leave it for some other time. it's special. great talking to you again . thank you. thanks very much. thank you for watching hope to hear again. it was a part of the

a hi. i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to planes or do they have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time. but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way the

the going to headlines right here and i'll see international is ready police re, you to, i will just see where is the office in jerusalem off of the government decides to shut down the outputs of operations in the country, the tales on campus with us. so far he's attempted to break up some of the pro palestinian demonstrations that have taken root in universities. from me, i did the impressed misleading commentary in the us by the way the media has the policy you're getting where access to the conflict riddled kashmir region that's locals costs at pilots and in

the.