those because we still have a chance to write our own chapter for this next part of our history yeah. >> oh, doris kearns goodwin. it's always great to talk to you. thank you so much. doors us so welcome it's a bit let's go back to jake in dc. jake, if you're just joining us. welcome to cnn's special coverage of donald trump's historic immunity battle. before the us supreme court oral arguments wrapped up a short while ago after about two hours, 40 minutes, the justices founded skeptical about donald trump's claim of absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. but they also seem to be signaling that they might not be prepared to greenlight a speedy trial in special counsel jack smith's january 6 federal case against mr. trump were also following trump's hush money trial in new york city, former tabloid executive david pecker is on

the stand as he has been all week. he's been testifying for the first time today. about a key figure in the case, adult film star in director stormy daniels, keep watching your screen for updates from inside the courtroom. they are are there are there and that side of the screen we're bringing you the reports from our reporters. let's bring in cnn, senior supreme court analyst, joan biskupic, who was actually inside the high court today as the oral arguments played out, joan, what stood out to you and was there anything that you would be able to discern that we just hearing it would not well, first of all, it was incredibly griffin right there in the room. jake, i cannot i cannot overstate just spence going into it and then just hearing those questions realizing the direction they were going, which is much further in a direction than i think any of us might have predicted. just to talk about some of the people in the room. jack smith is sitting there at the same table as michael driven, who was defending his position john sauer, defending

president trump. jane roberts, one, chief justices, wife, their patrick jackson, husband newest judges justice ketanji brown, jackson room was filled with many dignitaries just trying to hear all this. and what they heard was an argument from the justices that went more in the favor of donald trump than i think some people were anticipating. he he might have to win on the whole shebang of absolute immunity here. but the questions really showed how sympathetic they were to his position and how skeptical they were to jack smith's sayyed as articulated by government lawyer michael driven. and i'll tell you the surest sign of that nature of the questions and then the fact that john sour didn't even not even offer a rebuttal. i mean, he had a free five minutes at the end or close to that to reinforce his points. and i thinking heard most of the justices themselves make those points first of all, the kinds

of, i wouldn't call them quite off ramps, but detours before& trial would be something that we weren't sure. we thought was kinda baked into the question the justices took up official acts versus private acts, just what is an issue here, jack smith, it says it doesn't matter that anything that has been charged here is something that can go to trial. but then a question that came from justice kavanaugh, donald trump's second appointee to the supreme court, asking about should any criminal law that the president would be subject to have a clear statement that it would have to cover the precedent that is a very high bar for prosecution. of the president under these kinds of charges because of course, the president isn't singled out in any of these that was another point. and then the overlay jake was really really interesting in terms of the justices fears about overzealous prosecution, the checks on the government, a

grand jury, the the attorney general, anyone who would to have a hand in bringing a prosecution against the president, they were concerned about a certain unfairness, retribution, and any time michael driven tried to really push the justices toward the actual access are that are at issue here in the kinds of crimes they were brushed away by the more conservative justices, samuel alito kept saying, i don't want really want to talk about the offenses here. neil gorsuch said that fell to justice sonia sotomayor. they're really stress what was at issue. and michael driven kept pounding away, pounding away on the allegations against former president then trump and his disruption of the peaceful transfer of power all right, joan biskupic, outside the supreme court. >> thank you so much. let's look talk about the politics of all this because i don't know how the supreme court is going to roll. but certainly if they put forward an argument like alito did today, seeming more

concerned about how if a hypothetical president is fearing prosecution, he might be inclined to stage a coup, which is certainly an interesting way to look at this case. i don't know that that's going to bolster confidence in the us supreme court among the members of the public do i think i've told that we have that soundbite if you want to play it, do we want to do if we have it, let's play it if a an incumbent who loses a very close hotly contested election knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement. but that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent will that not lead us into a cycle that

destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy. and we can look around the world and find countries where we have seen this process, where the loser that's thrown in jail. >> yeah, we don't we don't have to look around the world. for something that isn't a hypothetical. that might show somebody in a very real not hypothetical situation that involve them climbing onto power even though they lost. >> but what it does is it's a reminder that so much of what we hold sacred is not necessarily written into the constitution with detailed words, but it is based on the notion that people are going to do the right thing. and we know that that isn't always the case, which is why what neil gorsuch said, not only saying that this is not about this case, but this this is about future cases. i was struck when he said we are writing a rule for the ages. >> they understand that this has to be finalized and has to

set precedent and will set precedent in a very particular way and just quickly on the politics the fact that everybody seems to be reading the questions to suggest that this is going to go back to the lower court if that happens, what does that mean? >> that is a victory for donald trump because it's a delay and it will be impossible to imagine that this will be resolved by the election. yeah. i mean, it is really amazing that the idea of rather than deterring people from taking the office and committing crimes in the office. the idea is to just make it easy for them when they leave so that they don't have to worry about it. they don't have to worry about trying to hold on to power i mean, literally maggie haberman has a contributor here, has said this before on multiple locations. donald trump sees the presidency as protection. that is why he wanted to stay in office because he had all these potential things around him that we're that were looming,

cases that he wanted to avoid that very idea might have been the thing that drove trump to try to hang on to power as much as possible. so look, you can look out of the way that alito's looking at it, but i do think that we're experiencing actually quite the opposite. and if there is not anything in the law to deter people from going into office too. tech themselves, from doing criminal things. then basically the presidency becomes the very monarchy that the founders didn't want raises a fascinating question because trump's goal is always delay. >> so you have the new york hush money trial going on right now, and i never thought i'd be sitting on set listening to arguments for the united states supreme court while on the other side of the screen, we're falling the testimony in new york and the publisher of the national enquirer, the former publisher of national guard is talking about how he was you didn't want to do business with a porn star. that's all happening at the same time because it's to, to classe of publication. donald trump continues to take us to places

we have never been before, but two datas point about the delay. a politically trump believes that benefits tim this new york trial is underway. the georgia election subversion case. no, no set date. the classified documents case supposed to start in may, but the judge, there has constantly pushed the board down the road, so it's possible it is possible that the new york case is the only case resolved before the election. maybe some of the others. my question politically is 193 days. america votes many, americans will vote early, but that's election de hundred 93 days. what if this goes back to the trial court and then there were decisions made and that's appealed up to the appeals court. this all being in the news. there may not be resolution. donald trump does not want to be convicted before the election because even a lot of republicans say if he is convicted that would make them think twice about voting enough republicans to swing the election thanks, they would think twice. but is this just constantly being the news helps him raise money, but does it help them with the small universe of voters who will decide who wins i would just like to point out to justice alito, forgive me. >> this is this is a donald trump problem as the kids, we have had president after

president go on leave office and not do do this. >> i just want to go to what's underlying the january 6 case and we have this whole discussion about official acts and personal acts. >> let's just remember that donald trump's own top aides told him there was no widespread election fraud that would change this case the courts, through it out. his own attorney general, bill barr, said the same. so there's really no evidence of any official act in what he did. it was because he didn't want to be a loser. >> it steven still there if so, i wouldn't so steve, let me go to you because you had a particularly interesting acronym response to alito's argument wtf whiskey tango foxtrot when he made that argument, explain explain your reaction.

>> well, i'm not think it's exactly two obvious point. i mean, it's, it really is remarkable how much the justices, especially the republican appointees during this morning's argument, really tried to not deal with, engage with except how much this case is a referendum on exactly what but four president trump did.& the irony of justice alito, using what trump did as a reason to be wary about holding him liable for what he did i think is where i come from. we call it code sba. >> but to john's point about the timing, i think one of the real questions here is how quick quickly can the court itself move if there is a majority for some kind of remal back to the district court cannot opinion come out in three weeks, four weeks, so that we actually have movement by memorial day or is this going to be one of the last decisions we've got from the court at the end of june that can have a lot to say about the political calendar the john was

talking about nmr. yeah. there were two points i thought were really interesting to one was that neil gorsuch raised the issue of south pardons today. he essentially was talking about forward thinking and saying, well, hold on a second. if every president is fearful that they may be treated by their successor to a criminal prosecution, then would that mean that the end of every single four-year period you've got the president who start to self pardon. he also said happily, we've never had the opportunity to address the issue of self pardons. he has wanted i'm sure it's now being teed up. the other part of it was also mentioned you talked about bill barr, attorney general. one i think justice alito mentioned was the idea of well, what do you be a defense to your conduct? if you had a pre-approval by your attorney general that what you were doing was not illegal, would that give you an a safe space to which they said yes, it would. now, he then that hold on. does that not incentivize you to a somebody to be your attorney general, who become essentially your yes, man, i know you've written about the hatchet man in your book as well, elleithee and thinking about this, well the response was, we've got we've got

structures in place through the whole confirmation process that will protect us against that. and we can all sort of scratch our heads and say, you mean, you think that no one could ever get through a confirmation process. supreme court that having said things that you would get yourself in the office position and then maybe we nag in some way and so it's kind of odd moment that happened yeah. >> it just it does feel like some of the questions were from a planet in which january 6, 2021 never happened and the challenge here, as i think it's so often is, can we collectively remove the donald trump of it? >> all and look at the bigger principal. and i thought it was notable throughout the argument today, you heard donald trump's lawyers trying to focus on the presidency itself and not donald trump and not donald wise by them to try to do that? absolutely. and the special counsel's lawyer was doing the opposite. it was all about the indictment. what led up to january 6, 2021, the facts of this case. and as justice gorsuch, i wrote this down to he said we are writing a rule for the ages. and i think what they may i'll do is write a rule that does exempt

president's in certain narrow circumstances. but ultimately say whether donald trump is inside or outside of those lines. that's not for us, that's for the factfinder. >> i did think it was just another line that struck out to me from justice sotomayor for she said the framers did not put immunity in the constitution, and she noted they could have, they knew what it was. there were other examples of it at the time. they didn't do it. and i do think that that is worth noting here that they're going to have to create something if there is immunity, they're going to have to create it. in this case. and that is going to be a huge landmark. >> so just one other thing is just there's this other trial going on right now. >> and i don't want to give it short shrift because that's where mr. trump is actually today and right now, we just have tried to bring you guys up to speed out there guys and gals, the mr.. >> mr. steinglass, the assistant district attorney has this been examining david pecker, the tabloid magnate,

former publisher of american media, inc. which publishes the national enquirer. he had a very cozy symbiotic relationship with donald trump and steinglass has been examining packer for the prosecution, talking specifically, not just about the previous catch and kill deals fuels that they had where the national enquirer would, by a story damaging to trump so that they would spike it, hide it from the public. they did that with a doorman's story from trump tower that apparently was just not based in reality, they paid $30,000 for it. it wasn't true. doesn't even we don't need to go into the details of that. the second story that apparently these individuals at the national enquirer thought was likely to be true, had to do with donald trump's alleged long-term relationship with 1998 playmate of the year, karen mcdougal. they paid her $150,000 for a column she was going to write for a magazine that was part of the ami em empire not specifically the national enquirer and they, and

they were just going to have a ghostwriter write it and they ended up not publishing that at all. then they got two the third instance of catch and kill and that is the one that is actually at issue here because that's the one that supposedly donald trump is accused of at least falsifying business records to hide that hush money being paid. le bring us up to speed as to some of the action that we have missed while this rather august argument in the us supreme court was going on up in manhattan. they were talking about porn stars and hush money. yeah, shifting focus back to manhattan now. >> so we got through in the testimony, david pecker, the story of the karen mcdougal catch and kill. essentially, they learned about karen mcdougal story. they were concerned both within ami national enquirer, david pecker is company and the trump campaign, and importantly, david pecker testified that they wanted to buy up the story and silence it because we didn't want the story to embarrass mr. trump or embarrassed or hurt the

campaign. it's a very important detail for prosecutors. they're ultimately the national enquirer, ami pecker's company buys the rights to the story from karen mcdougal for $150,000. and then there's this interesting dispute between the trump camp. they don't want to pay shockingly, donald trump, people don't want to pay for something nami wants to get paid, ultimately, they just back off. an ami says, you know what, we're going to pay for this donald trump's team does not end up paying for that. that sets this table then for the access hollywood tape, when that came out, there was testimony from david pecker that when that tape came out, it was very embarrassing very damaging to their campaign now, david pecker and the national enquirer folks, they're interested in first at trying to buy up stormy daniels story but then they quickly backoff because they decide we don't want any part of this. there's some concern actually on the national enquirer or as part that what they're doing may violate campaign finance laws is very important detail ultimately, ami, national choir, they're out, they're not part of the stormy daniels transaction that is left to

donald trump, michael cohen and their team, and that leads to the charge and that leads to everything else that we're about to hear in the manhattan courtroom. cnn's special coverage continues with updates on donald trump's hush money to cover up trial tabloid executive david pecker is going to resume it's quite often sensational testimony. >> any minute right now we're going to squeeze in a quick break. >> we'll be right back every piece of evidence, tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. >> martin sunday at nine on cnn. >> can zoom or cellular. this is sam palmy, healthier this is a butter well, somebody's but just thought i'd let you know that would consumer cellular, you can get the same exact coverage as the leading carriers but for up to half the price we get it learning something new is hard, especially a new language. so make it easy on yourself with a

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money criminal trial but there's other team of lawyers was here in washington over at the us supreme court. they argue that trump and any former president should have blanket immunity for actions undertaken while in office. those arguments have now wrapped up and aaron in new york testimony where you are will pick up right after the next hour or so they're in lunch break that's right. >> they just or lunch break. and we've been hearing from the former tabloid executive, david pecker wolf, who's gonna be returning to the stand. and after this brief lunch break prosecutors have finally gotten to the details of stormy daniels and the hush money deal. the heart of this entire case. pecker testifying but he wanted to quote no part in that transaction, despite the fact that he had orchestrated other similar payouts to benefit trump during the 2016 campaign, the so-called catch and kill that they were executing kara scannell was inside court the morning. phil mattingly is also with me, so kara, you were in there throughout the morning

and i know now on the on the lunch break, so take us in. what happened this morning. >> this morning, they they picked up where david pecker left off on tuesday. they got into the heart of the karen mcdougal deal and he was describing how long hey, who alleged had an alleged year-long affair with trump. >> right. and they had learned that she had this story. so he goes through how it came to be that they caught and killed the deal and that was one of his deputies, dylan howard, who is the editor in chief of the national enquirer, had gone out to meet karen mcdougal hello. and he was recounting to the jury how michael cohen on behalf of trump was calling him frantically to figure out what her story was and what to do about it. and so he american media that's where the david pecker had worked, had a great to pay karen mcdougal hundreds $20,000 to buy the rights to her lifetime story, which included her story that she had had a ten month long, affair with trump and he said that they had done this deal. he agreed to do it, but that donald will trump was going to

reimburse him and cohen told him the boss will get the boss will take care of it. so that was a reference to donald trump, david pecker said he understood from this that donald trump knew about the payment ami was making and that trump was ultimately supposed mr. reimburse am i for these reimbursements film and just going through some of the other things that trump was asked when this came up, it was very clear. so i guess michael cohen was worried he wasn't going to get paid back or for the stormy daniels payment and pecker testifies, don't worry that trump says him, don't worry about it. i'll take care of him referring to cohen and i guess what was quote, unquote, beat christmas bonus at christmas bonus, which cohen had actually had a conversation with pecker according to pecker's testimony of i haven't been paid yet. i need you to talk to the boss essentially on my behalf and also pecker testified that the bonus was a critical issue that michael cohen also wanted pecker to raise. and i think the process, if you look at the first couple of days with pecker's testimony

as kind of laying out the foundation for pecker's role in trying to prove prosecution's case. we're now drilling further into the critical details, including the moment when the access hollywood tape came out talking about that and pecker talking about how damaging that appeared to him and appeared to what he believed the campaign was seeing in that moment. but also in the weeks after trump actually won. and the fact that trump kept pecker very much within his inner circle to some degree, they were talking about how they communicate with trump in the white house. there's a meeting at trump tower, but also the trump's view of things. these stories in particular that were related to what am i and david pecker, we're doing had shifted in the way pecker testified of from how melania trump felt about them, how the family we felt about them too is this bad for the campaign? is this bad for my presidency now that i've one, all right, so let me ask you about something in this case because that's the whole core. right. was whether this was done because of the campaign, right? and that would be b would upset to the felony

and the violation. okay? pecker says, this is something that happened that you were there for this. i'm curious what happened. pecker says trump's family was not mentioned in conversations with cohen and trump about the stories when which indicated that trump could be embarrassed. and so pecker says, quote, so i made the assumption that concern was the campaign and then the defense stage is an objection. what happened in that moment was so there have been a couple of objections and the judge has been very clear on not wanting what they call speaking objections where the lawyers would kind of explain what their issue was in front of the presence of the jury. so they often have sidebars about that to figure out what can come in and what can't come in. and if the objective is valid or not but this is the core of the prosecution's case here they want david pecker to establish that trump was doing this involved in these payments to influence the campaign because that's what makes this case a felony case for falsifying business records. so david pecker is connecting these dots for the prosecutor caters to say that for each of these

deals, that concern was that and that only escalated after the access hollywood tape. and then even after that, when the wall street journal had reported three days before the election of that karen mcdougal has signed a deal with ami that david pecker said he went out and put out a statement saying that the story was false and he said he did that to protect himself, to protect his company, and to protect donald trump's campaign, really connecting those dots. and then there's this meeting sort of my jaw drops just when you think about it, you got trump in a room and trump tower, january of 2017, if i'm if i'm cracking, they're talking about this a few moments ago there's trump, there's david pecker, james comey just always think would be cia director mike pompeo was there there's well rights pretty this was the rnc chairman that was going to become the chief of staff of the white house. and sean spicer, who became the white house press secretary as well. in pecker, recounts how he basically was tapped on the shoulder by jared kushner, that the son-in-law of the former president to be brought into trump tower and is in this

meeting where the fbi director and my pump air, the future cia director our briefing, the president, or soon to be president, president elected at the time on a shooting in florida. very serious can imagine security like this is the reality of the office. you just one type of moment in trump introduces david pecker, according to pecker's testimony, and tells the assembled individuals, all of whom are there for a very serious, very weighty moment. >> for the future president. this guy knows everything about everything. essentially, he knows more about anything that any of you guys do. and so the relationship between the two of them, which was clearly been established as close and certainly mutually beneficial in the words of david pecker, doesn't stop after the election, doesn't stop based on the catch-and-kill deals. he's now being introduced to the future national security team of the president elected the united states. in the middle of a very important briefing guy who knows more than anybody. >> yeah, it is just sort of a moment's to take us in those words it is incredible. all right, thanks to both. and obviously, we're going to be here in new york throughout the afternoon, wolf with you erin.

>> we're gonna be working together all afternoon. it's a standby. i want to bring in brin qian grass right now. she's also in new york. she just emerged from inside the courtroom. you were there, you were watching it all unfold. brin give us your thoughts. how did it go yeah. >> i mean, most interestingly, wolf, you know, you're watching david pecker who was a longtime friend, confidant. i've done and i'll try. i'm testifying to the inner workings of how these catch-and-kill deals were made, how they were paid, how they are reimbursed, how three first min came back or didn't come back. and donald trump really he wasn't reacting quite honestly. he was sitting there at time sometimes conferring with his attorney, but he was mostly just sitting back in his chair like this with his eyes shut sort of taking in word by word how pecker was testifying and what he was testifying two. >> and it really kinda spoke to some of the testimony we did hear from david pecker toward the end that prior to the campaign, when those two to donald trump with david pecker would talk about those stories that were out about him regarding the doorman, regarding karen mcdougal trump

app said he was embarrassed and then he was worried about what his family would think. >> but after the campaign it was or after the election, he was more worried about those coming out because of how would look for him outside of his face families. so it really speaks to sort of how donald trump is sort of taking in all of this information. the one time that he actually did give us smirk inside the courtroom was when they discussed that meeting inside trump tower after president trump was president elect trump and david pecker walked into the room and he was surrounded by a number of these people who are advising the now-president lags in and donald trump may the comment that this is david pecker. he's the publisher of the national acquiror, and he knows more stories about me than anyone else in this room and pecker said, nobody really laughed at that, but that did get a laugh from donald trump. but quite honestly, he has been just really taking in word for word, how pecker is testifying who really is just kind of pulling back the curtain on every single detail, sometimes having to be reminded about some of the details about how

this caching kills worked and we didn't quite yet get to the stormy daniels. it was touched upon, but we haven't yet gotten to the depth of the stormy daniels a story which of course does that the core of this case certainly as britton, thank you very, very much. we'll get back to you soon now. we've got an excellent panel here of our legal and our political analysts and elliot williams, let me start with you. what stood out to you the most so far from today's testimony by david pecker, i think the biggest point right now, walf from day is the direct link to the trump campaign, which i don't think has been set explicitly now, just to recap, it's important to note that in order to make this a felony, it's prosecutors have to establish not just catch and payments, but also the falsification of business records to hide things from american voters in the context of a campaign and pecker says, at one point, once the foreign presence started campaigning, it was basically what the impact would be to the campaign

and the election. now, i don't want to leave the impression that that's some kind of smoking gun. and the president gets convicted on account of that. what i'm saying is that that is a direct nexus to talking about the campaign where suppressing these, these embarrassing stories wasn't just about the president and his wife, but actually the presence campaign, it'll be useful for prosecutors, but again, it all comes down to what the jury does. >> elie honig is with us ubud listening and watching all of this unfold. how do you expect the defense to cross-examine david pecker? >> well, that could happen starting this afternoon, by the way, it sounds like the way things are going in court. we could see the start of the cross-examination this afternoon and let me just say the way that you will feel about a witness as a prosecutor, as a defense lawyer, as a juror, after the end of direct examination is often very different from how you will feel at the end of cross-examination. here's what i think we could see in the cross-examination. first of all, they will say that david pecker, this caching kill stuff you were doing it the enquirer, sleazy, right? you knew it was sleazy, but you never believed this was criminal. and in fact, it's not criminal. start with

that. >> i think that they're going to go to the limitations of his knowledge. they don't necessarily need to paint david pecker as a liar, but they could say essentially to eliot's point, the crime here is falsification of the stormy daniels business records. you don't know anything about the logging and accounting of the stormy daniels business records. and then finally, they may sort of go after david pecker on the fact that he's think given a free pass here, he's been given a non-prosecution agreement. you're given a walk. donald trump's on trial, therefore, you have an incentive to try to help them. the prosecutors also, they could go after him in a way because he dealt so largely with michael cohen and they could try and take trump out of it and say, look, you and michael cohen were very close. >> you did all the dealings with michael cohen. you were even asked to help him get his christmas bonus or whatever it was. and trump wasn't as directly involved in this as michael cohen has said, and then try and put trump off to the side in all of this has not being as as involved in a

so-called conspiracy as he may well have been one more thing. >> it even if it's not specifically legal or a specific legal point, something prosecutors can do is simply expose what david pecker does for a living jury, which ordinary people, the citizens, do not have a concept of a magazine publisher who pays off porn stars to protect people's reputations. >> it's the kind of fact that at least plants the seed about someone's credibility in the eyes of the three. and then when you add to that, the non-prosecution agreement that lie ahead, had spoken to a moment ago what a defense attorney is trying to do is simply give jurors or reason not to trust or at least like this, assume everybody on that jury knows the national enquirer they do a certainly they do. >> but once details about their business practices and what they actually do was exposed to a jury. it's a perfectly permissible thing for defense attorneys say, wait a second. who are you and what did he do and what's your job? and it all comes down to how much jurors like believe in trust the person who's testifying to

them, that's correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't what the prosecution is doing overall with pecker understanding, they have a huge problem with michael cohen. are we trying to bring him in as a substitute to build up this narrative of the scheme, not necessarily to your point of saying, pecker knows the illegal behavior that took place here in observed data and can speak to it as much as it is. try to get as much in from him about the overall scheme, because cohen is going to be a problematic way and this is a dynamic and every trial defense lawyers like to say, look at this little piece. so testimony that's not a crime, standing alone. but what prosecutors say is you have to look at all all of it, sort of blended together. and i think what they're doing with david pecker is setting a foundation for the more important witness, michael cohen and they think that when pecker is saying we're backup number, good to hear from karla. >> yeah. it's not going to be 100% aligned. it never is when two people are telling a story about something that happened eight years ago, but clearly they're confident now that it will reinforce michael cohen. >> and i think if i think what the defense can also do is keep reminding people that the president also had incentive to keep this information away from

his wife wife, and children. now that it's still crime, if the fact if in fact the president had a motive to interfere with the election in some way on account of the behavior either. but merely mixing up for the jury. the fact that the president had different reasons for wanting these stories not to come out as a great way to just plant that pecker was asked directly about whether the family was ever raised as a concern and his answer was know that this was all about the campaign and that this wasn't personal. it's what he does say is that it's shifted at a certain point, but earlier on he does say he was always if a negative story was coming out he was always concerned about melania. >> he was concerned about ivanka. he was concerned about what the family might here say about it, and i just think the various purposes can twist the jury's minds. that is one interpretation. as to why on the karen mcdougal case that he was thinking about participating in the catch killens up was because he thought he said he thought it could be terribly embarrassing

to donald trump and his family here that's the exact quote, david, i was just going to read it. the quote was quote we didn't want the story to embarrass mr. trump or embarrassed or hurt they campaign. and as elleithee was saying, i think defenses are going to say, oh, when you say mr. in paris, mr. trump, as this thing from the campaign that's the family part of it. but again, the law, you don't have to show it was 100% one or the other prosecutors just have to show that a substantial part of the motivation here was campaign related. >> adi, how do you think it's playing politically, right now, as far as trump's grip on his own base on the republicans are going into this general election. >> i don't think it's really changing things in that respect, but i don't know if anyone else on the panel cares that jim comey was there. like does anyone else have a question about this? right? this previous to me, this is one of in the context of the supreme court conversation today about presidential immunity. one of the things that we're focused on was official acts. and this president, i think in a way, has shown us that there's a

kind of collapse there what's official versus what's not. do you talk about your hush money issue in front of your new fbi chief? sure. if he's in the room like there's no sense of borders there. and that's one of the reasons why the case that's happening before the high court is so important because it does directly speak to the kind of culture that can be established out of the executive office if there are not guardrails as decided by us as a society. >> well, and these conversations were going on i don't want to use already the president elect this is ahead of the inauguration. >> this was happening and there was no sense of like, hey, maybe there's a border here that between candidate me, an official, me, it was like you all work for me good. >> well, maybe and maybe he puts he puts david pecker in this meeting with james comey, sean spicer ryan's prematurity. >> i hope their tastes and all and thanks. thanks him for helping him out. and there is no distinction. it shows you how important the president elect thought david pecker was

i mean that really does go to this not only was he a good friend, but he helped him a lot and wanted to thank him and as you pointed out, he didn't care who it was in front of elliott's point. i mean, i love that you have that kind of faith in people and how they think of us as journalists. >> i actually don't think that's the case. this is the kind of behavior that people come to see as somehow common that even journalism politicians that together there's a kind of paper for play kind of concept how we do our work, which is not true. it may have been true for the national enquirer, which is how you end up in this box testifying, but i don't necessarily think people will hear that and think, oh, no, i can't believe a politician did that. >> i just meant more porn stars and aliens and the kinds of junk that you see in the national enquirer all the time. i just like both of those things have better reputations and politicians and journalists like people feel are far more willing 8% yeah, probably take a quick break. everybody snicker rod. we have a lot more

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resume. and at that time, tabloid executive david pecker will return to the stand. it's kara scannell, phil mattingly are with me so we've. got a few more minutes, everybody. you know, you can imagine the lawyers right, getting everything together, getting ready to go back in and resume this direct examination of david pecker there have been some really interesting moment it's already though that are giving them maybe at this moment some, some moments to pause one of them an executive at the national enquirer who works for david pecker the prosecution brings up a text message that this person, dylan howard, sends to a family member in which he says it talks about being pardoned for election fraud if trump wins, but at least i'll get a pardon for election for extensively referring to everything that they were doing, right. >> i mean, it's it's an acknowledgment that they knew that what they were doing because remember, this is in 2016 around the election night, an acknowledgment that they knew that what they had done was in violation of the election laws.

>> thing as the judge has not allowed that into evidence yeah. that was something they were arguing to try to get in outside the presence of the jury and the judge said, right now, he's not letting it in the sidebar argument right now. so what i just said is out there, but not to the jury exactly. right. so the prosecution is still going to try to get this in. the judge said, as of now, he's not letting it in and part of that has to do with this the conversation howard had with a family member and dylan howard is not on the stand right now, so they'd have to authenticate it in order to get it in. there are still fighting about that. the prosecution saying, well, this was this was from his ami phone that he used for work. so this is going to continue to be a debate, but at this point, the judge isn't sold, so the jury hasn't heard that very stark line, very stark it's fascinating. he read through several different techniques. and again, the jury was not in there. they're trying to have this admitted. this was objected to by trump's team and judge merchan said he would consider it, but think about it more and talk about it after lunch and other email from dylan howard had actually been admitted by the judge a little bit earlier on during a series

of objections, but also that with this first-degree family member, i believe is as it was described, dylan howard, who is the editor-in-chief from national enquirer on election night, saying, in a text message oh dear essentially that trump was going to win, but also in another text message saying, i don't believe this is going to hurt us at all the favors that we've done for the former per four, then the president elect or soon to be president elect. and whether or not this tragic case for first off, they have to be admitted. but i think it underscores the thinking at the time of the individual who is it clearly a point person with david pecker was actually running the national enquirer himself within conversations with a lot of the lawyers i think for stormy daniels and over the course of this time period that they recognize and maybe something wasn't jest, but they recognized that the gravity and the stakes this moment that may be in the moment because this was how they did business. they've done this with the former president several times. had not necessarily occurred to them, but on election night was really dropping like a hammer. >> i know i know that the heart

of the case right. is what the payments were. they a violation, were they a felony? and it's not about whether the underlying acts as the payments before happened or not, right nonetheless, though, you can imagine the defense wants to raise that question trump wants to raise that question that basically will. of course, i had to pay. this is unfair. these things weren't true get election fraud. i was just defending my monitor. right. make that argument in that context. karen mcdougal, who they also spoke extensively about today, the former playmate who had had she said a nearly year long affair with former presidents so they're talking about buying these things and oh, well, they didn't happen. so that's why trump was paying off they talked talk about pecker, talks about a conversation that he had with trump where trump's says, how's our girl doing, right? referencing karen mcdougal referring to someone in a way that you would refer to them if you knew them, if you had had an affair with them, if they were your girl, right and in the converse, there was another conversation. >> just a handful of congress stations that david pecker testified that he had directly with donald trump in another

one of those conversations, when they had just learned that karen mcdougal was going to go public liquid this according to pecker, trump said to him, and house karen. so a familiarity, not who is this stranger that has made some allegation, but com calling her by her first name, which then when you add the two together, suggests that there was some familiarity with who she was and where where the story was coming from. >> and that's the psychology that now what is in front of the jury, but that's the psychology that the prosecution is trying to get i'm sure now, in front of the jury, and i believe that discussion with holler girl was the same meeting we were talking about prior was just after the meeting with the future presidents, national security team inside trump tower. so those individuals left james tell me my pump peo reince priebus, sean spicer, and then trump turned to david pecker, according to pecker's testimony, and asked him about that issue. so of all the other things going on in the president elect mind, that was something he wanted to talk to david pecker about. i think the other element two is we're starting to see the stormy daniels who obviously is at the

center of all of this start to come into play here. here is the prosecution. it's kind of laid the foundation is telling the story through and how it connects to the prior to catch-and-kill payments where there's a conversation the pecker recounts with michael cohen basically saying two things. one, i'm not gonna front this money for you anymore because ami had covered the first two catch-and-kill payments, which would explain why cohen felt like i had to pay for it but two, that am i couldn't be tied to stormy daniels because she was a porn star and that wasn't the type of business i'm paraphrasing here. that wasn't the type of business the national enquirer would want to necessarily a conclusion. you would have drawn. now into this into this room in the story ark that we're on now, right? they're going from their sabotaging karen mcdougal. they talked about, but door man who would made allegations which were proven to be false about a child, but trump's father was false. now, you're on stormy daniels, where are we in the testimony of david pecker? we're almost at the end because he is also talking about that trump tower meeting was what prosecutors have

called the thank-you meeting where he talks to he goes and he sees trump. >> trump. thanks, tim taking care of this? he also invites him to the inauguration. david pecker said he didn't go, and then there's one more meeting that prosecutors have flagged. so this is what i expect david pecker will be asked about when in return soon for after lunch, was that it was in the spring or summer of 2017 after trump has been president, he invites david pecker to the white house, keep i'm sorry. i keep davidson. i'm dylan howard goes along with him and it was the thank you dinner. and he thinks him then trump thinks david pecker for everything he's done for the campaign. so that is what we will then here think that brings us toward the end of the direct examination and then it will be trump's attorneys opportunity to cross-examine david pecker, and i'm told that's going to take you hours, a few hours. what we see, we'll see where we are them. all right. >> let's send it back to you, wolfe or their and i want to bring in jury consultant alan turkheimer right now. alan, thanks so much for joining us.

how do you think the jury so far is responding to all this >> i think it's so far so early on favorable for the prosecution. now, they're painting a picture of the printing a broad picture, and they're given jurors details that they're going to use down the road. so my guess is if you ask the jurors, of course this couldn't happen, but hypothetically which side do you favoring or do you think that there's some wrongdoing? i think most jurors would say bad, kinda lean in favor of the prosecution at this point. and there was probably some wrongdoing. but there's so much left when i talk to jurors after they've served on cases, it's very rare when they say that something click with them and they made up their mind or something really significant happened in their outlook of the case just during the direct testimony of the first witness. so i think it's going well for the prosecution, but that can change quickly. >> well, do you think the prosecution is doing an effective job that proving its basic allegation that this so-called catch and kill scheme wasn't just unsavory or sleazy but it was illegal election

interference. this is the the novel legal argument. did you think it's been laid out well enough, at least so far for the jury i'm not so sure it has. and the prosecution has to enable jurors & empower them to connect the dots. because at the end of the day, these jurors who went through this whole process of indicating they can be fair and impartial and keep an open mind. they're going to have to say, and thinking compartmentalize. i can say, well, i don't really think this was a nice thing that, that happened there were a lot of sleazy things that went on or underhanded things. but at the end of the day, i still don't see the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt, so i'd think that the prosecution has to start speaking the language of the law and try to propel the jurors to decide that there was, in fact election interference keywords beyond a reasonable doubt. so critically important to pecker testified as you know, that trump knew about the contract with big google. will the defense be able to convince the jury that trump was unaware of the stormy daniels hush money

payments with testimony like this it's what they're going to have to try to do and it's a tough sell that the person all the way at the top was unaware of things jurors often hold the person who's in charge accountable, and that often doesn't fly, but they're going to do their best. >> and the cross is going to present pecker in a very different light and jurors might come but way with his testimony and others where there's just so much doubt swirling around and there's all this information that they don't really take to mean that there was awareness on the part of the president. so i think they have a good chance and that's certainly what they're going to try to do with the cross-examination of these witnesses. and then during their own case and ultimately maybe if trump takes the stand himself interesting, we're told by our colleagues who are inside the courtroom that trump has been sitting in court, leaning back, closing his eyes occasionally whispering and passing notes to his lawyer at one point, he cracked a smile when pecker described being introduced by trump to some of his campaign staff as someone

who quote, probably knows more, than anybody else in this room. so how do you think trump's coming off to the jury that the former president, how is he coming off to the jury? i think the former president's coming off pretty well, but maybe by trump's standards, he seems to be pretty composed the occasional smile and the note-taking and leaning over is fine. i think jurors appreciate that, but the dozing off or i'm shutting whatever happened there i would probably try to limit that if i was the defense. >> but overall, it sounds like he's seeming like he's respecting the process and not rubbing jurors or wrong way. >> but it's early on that can change or if it continues then props to donald trump. >> yeah, we'll see what happens. sorry, alan. thank you so much ellyn turkheimer, juror jury so thank you. court resumes in just a few minutes in the criminal hush money trial of donald trump and our special live coverage will continue right after this

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options had to go montgomery and tokyo. >> and this is cnn welcome back to our special coverage here on cnn. >> i'm erin burnett in new york along with wolf blitzer in washington an in just a few moments, donald trump's manhattan hush money trial will resume their on lunch break. they are coming back in the courtroom for the afternoon session. it comes after the justice department and trump attorneys, but more than two hours in front of the supreme court earlier today, a different legal team for trump, of course there they argued whether trump or any former president can be prosecuted for actions they took while in

office, wolf interesting, aaron, the former tabloid executive, david pecker, will also be back on the stand very, very soon. >> he's been testifying about those hush money negotiations with stormy daniels. any went into great detail about the so-called catch and kill deal with former playboy model, karen mcdougal. let's walk through some of the major takeaways from david pecker's testimony right now, our senior legal analyst, elie honig, is over at the magic. while ellie walk us through what we need to know, at least right now. yeah. well, if as the jury gets ready to come back from its lunch break, let's catch up on some important things that happened this morning. first of all prosecutors are taking king the jury through david pecker, really deep inside this world of catch-and-kill and prosecutors are using david pecker to really tell a three chapter story on tuesday, they told the story of dino sajudin a door man who claimed he had a story turned out to be false about donald trump having a child out of wedlock. he was paid for his story, which was then killed, never quran today, the primary just of the testimony has focused on karen

mcdougal, who alleged that she had an affair with donald trump. and that's the gist of what david pecker was talking about. so let's go into that for a moment. so pecker testified he was asked about why was karen mcdougal story bought and then killed? and here's the testimony. steinglass asked whether the reason was so that mcdougal story, her allegation of an affair did not influence the 2016 election against donald trump. david pecker said, yes, it was later david pecker testified, we didn't want the story to embarrass mr. trump or embarrassed or hurt that campaign prosecutors are going to say, look, the motive was campaign donald trump's team is going to say well, there was also a personal motive here for donald trump's. so look for that on cross now eventually they enter into a contract with karen mcdougal, ami, david pecker enters into a contract that donald trump himself was not part of. and david pecker said the purpose of that agreement was to disguise the true nature of the contract. they didn't want the public

learning about karen mcdougal's allegations. now that brings us to sort of between chapter two and chapter three. the big thing that happens is the access hollywood tape came out and the jury's not seeing that tape, but they've learned about it. this is where donald trump gets caught on camera talking about, you can grab them by the blank, et cetera. we remember that tape and pecker said, when that takes it came out, it was very embarrassing, very damaging. again, to the campaign important point for the prosecution here. and then where david pecker's testimony left office, he was starting to talk about stormy daniels. stormy daniels comes forward. >> she alleges that she had this sexual dalliance with donald trump. >> their worry about it, and david pecker decides we've had enough. he says, i am not paying for this story. i, meaning the national enquirer. i am not paying with this story. i didn't want to be involved in this from the beginning. i'm not doing it. so where we leave off in the testimony is ami and david pecker are about to hand off the stormy daniels mess, to michael cohen and to donald trump and their team. and that's what we're going to pick up this afternoon. wolf, as we sort of head into chapter three of our three chapter story that prosecutors are

trying to tell the jury. >> and he says he didn't want the stormy daniels story in the national enquirer because it would be inappropriate at some of the supermarkets, which we're selling, the national enquirer's that right? >> yeah, that's part of the testimony. interesting where the national enquirer draws its moral lines. that's not for me to judge. >> interesting elie. thank you very much. aaron, back to you i'm sorry, ali okay obviously, when everyone goes back in that courtroom, it is david pecker who's going to resume his testimony. he is again, the former publisher of the national enquirer, bingeing guys was in the room for this morning's testimony. so when you were there and these these back-and-forth these revelations, these descriptions we just let me just talked about& bet national enquirer. i'm sorry, the access hollywood tape that cannot be shown to the jurors, but there was a lot of detailed that pecker did go into about that tape and then following up with

the fact that he said one hiv is magazine websites, radar online had a article that was posted that was titled play boy man, essentially about trump and immediately how they worked with michael cohen to kill that story online as well. so really it's quite interesting to listen to david pecker go into all the inner workings of exactly how this caching kill scheme worked. not for all those three cases that le laid out for you right there. and i've got to tell you it was surprising to see donald trump's sort of sitting in his chair and really just keeping his eyes closed sometime moving his head to the side are leaning in to listen, but just keeping his eyes close almost as if he was trying to take it all in at word for word, but not really reacting. and we all kind of look to see if he would react, of course, to that national i'm sorry, that ax is hollywood tape description. and since that was such a pivotal moment prior to his campaign, really the only time that he even gave a smirk was when they were talking about sort of this inner conversation after he

became president elect at trump tower when trump made the comments about david pecker who was meeting a bunch of his advisers. but david pecker new a lot of stories about him. pecker said no one really laughed in that room, but trump did smirk at that comment. listen, he has been on the stand for a total of five hours from a tuesday rather into today. and as you heard from le he's gotten into those two major stories, but not quite yet into the store be daniel story, which is at the heart of this case. and so certainly we do expect that to happen when it gets picked back up after lunch all right. >> beringia and grass. thank you very much. of course. brin will be there. kara scannell, phil mattingly here with me. so kara, when she says a five-hour so far for david pecker and i know you anticipate another few hours, maybe that does not actually finish until tomorrow morning the yeah. >> i mean, it sounds that way, prosecutor joshua steinglass said around noon that he thought he had two to three hours more. so that was one hour we got now we have the lunch break. so if this goes

for another two hours, that takes us pretty close to the end of the court de maybe the cross, maybe donald trump's people skip to start there cross-examination, that it definitely seems like david pecker is going going to meet on the stand for a forced de in a row this week to finish his testimony, it has been interesting that while we understand they don't speak anymore, trump and david pecker. pecker is the one person that trump has not of the potential witnesses, stormy and michael cohen, obviously, he constantly has disparaged nothing but pleasantries about david pecker. >> so it is nice so he was right. it said he said, he said he's nice and it's interesting. karen, i think we're trying to psychologically figure this out. one of the commercial breaks is just because they've got decades where relationship with the prosecution kind of laid out in detail tell point-by-point, is it because of kind of where they come from and the same running in the same circles over the course of those decades. >> i don't actually know. i think what's interesting is when you look at what he said about potential witnesses are what he said about the judge or

the jury. >> it's gotten them into some trouble and i think we're still waiting we were wondering if it's gonna come this morning. if judge mug shot would make a decision on whether or not they're gag order violations. and if there were what he would actually have to do, we have to pay money. somebody former president was asked about this morning when he didn't small gaggle with reporters, but when it comes to david pecker, who again, has been testimony testifying four hours over the course of several days and certainly hasn't made the former president look good given the details, he's been able to give into a very seedy world. i don't think most normal people know about he at least, accord with the former president. still thinks he's nice. >> yeah. i mean, it's quite suspect. mean there's many people at ease cohorted with for many decades that he does not speak called nice way but you're right, it's all about the psychology, right so the gag order that phil just mentioned, i know that the prosecution came in and they alleged more violations. what, three or four this morning, and yet still no ruling. >> why not? yeah. for more,

including donald trump's gaggle with reporters this morning calling david pecker, nice because what the prosecution said is that is sending a message other potential witnesses to be nice to him when they testify on the stand. so they're saying that that is an inappropriate comment that donald trump is making now that violates the gag order. so now they came in today with four that is on top of the tense, we've got 14 alleged violations this is all before the judge. he didn't take it up this morning even after the prosecution raised it. i mean, that could be because the jury is here. they were on time and that just never want to keep the jury waiting so he could have just thought to himself, he's going to table this until inappropriate breaks so they can get the testimony underweight and keep this trial moving because one thing that i just said repeatedly is we're not having any delay. we're keeping this trial going. so that could be one of the reasons. but this is hanging out there and what the prosecution keeps saying and literally every day is if you don't rule on this, he's going

to keep violated get proven to be the case. apparently you it's fascinating though, is when you contrast this qarrah in the middle of doing all of this, also wrote another story about another legal development for the former president today in the defamation case where he wasn't getting it, correct me if i'm wrong, this is not going to get a new trial based on the e jean carroll defamation case. think back to that trial. >> he's out. >> he was muttering he was going back and forth. and while he's got 14 specific issues, prosecutors are saying he has with his gag order, he has been very, very different inside this try you've seen them in person. we've gotten the reduction control, very controlled, not reacting too much. i think there's a smirk care and their eyes are closed passing notes back and forth, but i it's a dramatic contrast to pass trials and we know why, right? and if you remember the e jean carroll trial was also before a jury and during e. >> jean carroll's testimony, trump was muttering things out loud that when they took a break, the aging carroll's lawyers said he's saying which tante saying these words that they thought the jurors could hear, and then during the closing arguments, when carroll's attorney had just

started, he stood up and walked out and that was such a shock being there covering that, seeing him just get up and leave. and the judge even stopped it and said, for the record, donald trump just got up and exited the courtroom because he wanted that in the record for any appeal in this case, there was just one moment early on during jury selection where trump was as the judge's the one who put this on the record. also in this case, and he said as a juror was leaving leaving the room, this was something they were questioning a social media post on donald trump as the judge put, it, was muttering something and was gesturing in the direction of the juror and he directed him. he said, there is no juror intimidation in this courtroom. am i making myself crystal clear so that in a sense was laying down the judge's tolerance for something like this. and it seems like probably his lawyers have spoken to him a lot about this, but also the judge already making a line here that he's not going tolerate and maybe to your point, just at the end of the de just quickly makes a quickly makes a ruling trump has just walked in the foreign president has walked in to the

courtroom as we said, they were anticipating this fully resuming at 2:15 eastern time and right now it's 2112 12. so he is back and it looks like they are going to keep this tightly the scheduled areas and we're going to take a break and come right back. and i'll be bringing you this trial live. is it resumes? >> every piece of evidence, tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. >> martin sunday at nine on cnn nothing comes close to this place in the morning. i'm so glad i can still come here. you see i was diagnosed with obstructive hcm and there were some days i was so short of breath. i thought i'd have to settle for never stepping foot on this trail again. i became great. at making excuses, but i have people who count on me. so i talked to my cardiology i

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we're continuing our breaking news coverage of donald trump's hush money, criminal trial. the prosecution will resume questioning of david pecker, the former publisher of the national enquirer, or that starts minutes from now, our panel is still with us and elie honig, let me get your thoughts because the judge in this case, judge merchan, says he signed the order to show cause regarding four new violations by trump of the gag order. okay. so these violations alleged violations are now compounding. >> so there are already 11 alleged violations that the de a brought to the judge and said donald trump violated your gag order these 11 times. >> they had a hearing on that on tuesday. we're still waiting eating for the ruling on that one, which i hope i expect kopan should come anytime now, sometimes soon. now, what's happening now is in addition to that the da is saying, now, here are four more times just in the last day or so where we believe donald trump has again violated your gag order, and the judge has said, okay, i'm going to hear you out. we're going we're going to have a

hearing on that as well. so he's not yet ruled that donald trump has violated the gag order, but now we have two sets pending. we have the original 11 potential violations. and now for more you have to rule by. >> i mean, this isn't every question. >> he hasn't ruled on he could he could simply just ignore it all together. i mean, i think part of the problem here is the judge sort of invited this by not having ruled sooner and given more clarity of the court. now the question is, does he rule twice because he rolls as elie said, on the first 11 and then the second four, or delay whenever ruling he issues and just do all 15 and has been that he will issue as punishment the ruling of trump's violating the gag order while the court is in session. yes. so trump's lawyers will hear what he has to say. >> there's a disciplinary element to this. i mean, i think the judge, if all the judge did was a german court for the day hey, and then publish a written ruling that popped up on the docket sheet that wouldn't have any impact. i believe the judge is going to address donald trump directly and tell him in so many words

knock it off and moreover, it is about maintaining discipline and order in the courtroom. >> there's two different purposes you're one of them is ensuring that the defendant does not continue to engage in the same way in the future, but also reminding the people that step into your courtroom that you are in charge. this is your domain, not you, mr. defendant, you don't get to set the rules for sort of these extra out sayyed statements that are targeting jurors prison. so on and i just think the judge has sort failed in a way up until he's been he's done able job in so many other areas, but in terms of maintaining discipline in this keep coming in in real time, right? because the former president did a affiliate television interview with wpvi, philadelphia battleground from pennsylvania earlier this week. and trash michael cohen and that immediately became one of the ones at the prosecution then introduced today. as yet another violation of the gag order. i think he made other comments about the political makeup of the jury and going

right at the jury, which again, the prosecution says is in violation of the gag order. so with each passing day as donald trump test the boundaries of this, the prosecution comes in the next day. it's like here's more and so at some point that's going to become a little unruly. one's got to imagine the judge is going to lay out the ground rules here in a more substantial the president says, you know, he's just responding to what michael cohen is doing. michael cohen is now saying he's not going to tweak anymore about donald trump, at least that's really time. but for the time being that's what he said. so maybe and the president today did not come out and say anything about cohen when he went into court? so maybe the message is getting through a little bit. i mean, we don't know the answer, but i don't know how the judge feels. he can potentially affect donald trump because can anyone can his attorneys can a judge i mean, who's to say that? >> what would be and let's be clear. no more than $15,000

fine i know it would be up to $1,000 per violation. the judge is not going to put the former. i think, but the foreign president behind bars for these infractions thus far in his, i believe, his last civil case, it was after the fines were assessed and then raised and then paid that the president actually started complying and behaving better so there might be a way of ensuring better conduct hereafter, but but you're right, it's a particular defendant that that many people that aren't citizen le were to do what trump has done 12 or 15 violations of the judges a court order. this would that average person be eligible to go to jail? oh eligible. and i think quite likely. i mean, i'm not being hyperbolic or this has to be an all-time world record. i mean, i've seen people occasionally breach a judge's order breach one of the courtroom rules. once maybe twice. i tried some bad guy hi, so we didn't really care about rules, but ten times 12 times

15 times. >> this is unseen in my experience, i can't think of any precedent for this have been yet ruled as well, violating the gag adjudication. >> it's an allegation or we're assuming the judge is going to the rule that these violations. >> it's really important to note that point that you made david, which is that we associate donald trump's conduct with what happened in other cases and other statements he's given and so on in this trial, has not been formally reprimanded in any way, has not had a fine or a prison time, which again, not going to happen i thank we have to separate those two things. yes. the former president has a long history of misbehaving and courtrooms. but what matters under new york law is what he has done in front of this judge. what the judge has warned me can't do. and what one finds the judge assesses two. that's within the kind of legal confines of the conversation, whereas i think he he is right now arguing that he deserves immunity for all things and all scenarios. >> so it's not a stretch for him to march out of the

courtroom whenever he wants. and essentially speak out of turn, right. if what you're trying to show to your supporters and voters is a disdain for the system that you believe is corrupt, then you're going to a push this line and this is where this is so complex for this judge to be one of the first people to really have to deal with a former president in this man until trump believes that it's not doing them any good anymore. and that, and i don't know when he reaches reaches that point politically, he may have reached that point, started talking about the gdp today instead of talking about the unfair trial. so at some point when he believes it is actually hurting him politically, maybe he'll change, but i don't know that we've gotten there yet. >> we've just learned that david pecker le is back on the stand right now. he's already testified for more than five hours. he's going to testify this afternoon for at least a couple of more hours and then maybe come back tomorrow. fact that the prosecution is spending so much time with

david pecker. what does that say to you? how important of a witness is he? i think david pecker, when all is said and done, we'll probably be the second most important witness in this trial after of course, michael cohen putting aside the possibility of donald trump himself taking the stand, which would certainly changed the calculus what you want in your lead off here, what you want in your first witness as a prosecutor is someone who can take the jury inside, who can lay the foundation. so the jury now understands. i think probably a more detailed than they ever wanted hoped needed are expected. what catch-and-kill is, and how it works they also understand who the key players are, okay, on the ami side, we've got david pecker and then we've got his lieutenant, dylan howard on the other side. we've got donald trump, and we've got his lieutenant michael cohen, the jury understands who communicated with who they understand the basics. now, if the trial were to end right now, it would be not guilty because the prosecution is only beginning to put on his kate's. they have not established all the elements of the crime, nor could you possibly do that as a prosecutor with your first witness. so if i'm prosecutor and we have to withhold

judgment until after cross, but i'm pleased with what david pecker has done so far. i think he's laid the foundation and i think he's brought the jury into this world we just their learning that todd blanche one of trump's lawyers, leaned over whispering to trump as pecker walks up to the stand, trump person's lips and not really a thing. >> oh, i do not read anything into who what attorneys do at the table. it could be something innocuous literally. oh man, i forgot to go to the bathroom. i mean, it's it's it could be it could be nothing to add onto what eliot saying. i think the important thing about pecker obviously is he'll corroborate michael cohen, but he has to be a credible witness. and i think so far at least from what we can garner, he has been a credible witness. yes. >> he's offered details. he's talked about michael cohen and the deals they made, his interactions with donald trump he just doesn't seem cross-examined, actually haven't seen cross examination yet, but so far, he comes

across as credible. we'll see what happens on cross those lawyers started leaning when you said that because i reckon that's exactly the point. >> it's cross-examination person i'm sorry. >> right. >> that's the trial is resuming right now. the jury is back in the courtroom. everybody stick around, are special live coverage will continue right after a break rionda, new album is breaking records gets to say what country is comey country beyond, say a nashville's renaissance, april 26, streaming exclusively on maths. you've found that you're kayak company because you love the ocean, not spreadsheets you need to hire. >> i need indeed. >> indeed, you do. indeed instant match, instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description and visit indeed.com slash hire this is what we call student body math proficiency. >> when we say it's good, fair, satisfactory, like a

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>> happening now, former national enquirer publisher, david pecker, is on the stand and donald trump's hush money criminal trial and wins back from lunch. the form present in the room, the lawyers, the jury they are all there and that cross that direct examination is continuing joining us now is an attorney who at one time represented trump, tim parlatore. so you've been in these situations, of course, tim, you know, you worked with them i just want to take take stock of where we are. he's back in that room we do know that the judge is moving ahead with at least four of those alleged violations of the gag order that the prosecution had put forth to move to censure on that, but not a broader ruling yet. so that's that context is now on top of the fact that he's in the room right now with david pecker on the stand will give us a sense of what you think is mindset is right now and it seems like tim cannot hear me all right.

>> so we'll see if we can okay. >> while we're working on that, i'll just give everyone a sense of what we know is happening in the room. are reporters are in there and basically filing, typing as i would tell his good soldier feel like they're getting shoulder injuries. but what's actually happening and right now to 31 text messages between dylan howard and keith davidson karen mcdougal's attorney are on the screen and some of these have been important. there's been a significant back-and-forth between attorneys on what are there some of these texts, messages can be submitted. >> the screens in the courtroom are now showing a photo of dylan howard at the white house. >> dylan howard was the editor in chief of the national enquirer, worked under david pecker and they're talking about this meeting at the white house, which david pecker is just testifying. two was according to him, a thank you. dinner that trump was hosting for the team of the national enquirer for what, what pecker has made clear was the help

that they gave trump during the election in some of these catch and kill schemes, including the karen mcdougal scheme that we have. a lot of question questions earlier today and also now of course, the stormy daniel's one texts on july 12, 2017 from keith davidson to dylan howard reed's how goes it and there was another one i know wolf that they have been dead. there's debate, debate or whether over whether it will be allowed between those two. one of the attorneys and dylan howard, the former editor in chief one of them saying, what have we done on election night when trump actually won the white house? wolff? >> yeah, a lot of details emerging right now in hi stuff inside the white house with it then former president of the united states. and what was going on with all these allegations that have been leveled against them, including various criminal allegations were watching this very closely and elliot williams it's not just sleeves that were reporting right now that we're these are serious criminal

violations that trump is facing. and potentially could wind up in serious trouble. >> he could wind up in serious trouble. and to your point it's important for a jury to strip away the sleeves and the details and just get to and this is what prosecutors are trying to do, get to number one, where we're their financial transactions made. >> what purpose were those transactions made for? >> and was that purpose for influencing a campaign? all the stuff about the porn and the money and the tabloids. yes, it's salacious but it isn't entirely relevant to the underlying& prosecutors are trying to do. and not the defense. i think wants to an ought to want to muddy the waters by focusing the jury on how crazy and salacious at all it is quite all. but as a prosecutor, what you really want to do is just stick to the facts wolff to that point. >> again, we've said and i'll skin continue saying it, catch and kill, hush money, not a crime. >> i think it was paul begala

who said it's the economy stupid, do i have that right? historically, james james, how the other one? james carville, who said it's the economy stupid. i think a tagline for this cases, it's the accounting stupid. it's not the actual hush money purchasing. it's the way that donald trump and michael cohen and others set up the repayment to michael cohen on the stormy daniels payoff. that is the crime here that that we'll get to that david pecker does not know about that. he wouldn't be in position to know about that, but he setting the stage for them and i will add one little thing to that. what is most newsworthy? i acknowledge is all of these details about the human element and the sayyed too, all of this, what is legally most relevant is probably the guy with the green eye shade who will come testify at some point about accounting practices then the trump organization about how they handled and maintained their records, what they did with them, and what they knew about what the purpose of what they were doing was. that ends up being about pecker, is that he refused to pay for stormy

daniels karen mcdougal was one thing, but he didn't want to pay for stormy daniels, whether it was cushy was a porn star or whatever is he said, i'm not a bank. i'm not going to pay for stormy. so that takes you out of his bank account into donald trump's organization, into michael cohen, into michael cohen laying out the money i'm trying to get reimbursed and not really being successful at that. so i think what pecker does is he sets it up and says, well, that was a bridge too far, stormy was a bridge too far for me and for the national enquirer. and i told michael cohen, if you want to pay or you're going to have to do it. and that's exactly what happened. and when we're talking about the hush money david xiaolei going the allegation is that it's all related to criminally getting involved in campaign finance election interference. >> and these are serious, serious allegations. yeah. i mean, as we've discussed just paying hush money is not a

crime. that's that's not a legal here. this is all about attaching the hush money payments to trying to defraud the public in an election and this was an remember, i know defrauding elections is something in elections is something we discussed it in terms of the context of the supreme court immunity case this morning that related to the 2020 election. this is about donald trump's first election in 2016. this is candidate donald trump and when pecker was on the stand and asked about whether he knew that this was in violation of campaign finance laws. he said he did understand that this was my as a part of me understood. later, perhaps i don't know if he knew at the time, but as a part of his agreement with prosecutors, have this non-prosecution agreement and understood at this point that at least testifying today, that what he was conducting was in violation of campaign by very quickly, these are not just criminal violations that are misdemeanors. felonies. so exactly what brings this from a

misdemeanor. the accounting makes it a misdemeanor. what brings it up to a felony is that campaign connection that we've been seeing a lot of testimony about the david and ellen and gloria. everyone has been talking about was the motive here. we need to cover this up for the campaign or was it we need to protect donald trump and his wife and his children from humiliation. and if it's both if it substantially both, that's good enough for prosecutors interesting. all right, guys, everybody standby. our special coverage will continue right after this. >> when the jinx came out, i thought, oh, my god when bob has a friend, he expects blind loyalty. >> we're going to be surprises, surprises this is a futurama go daddy arrow creates a logo website, even social posts and minix ai ai lai. >> who wants to come see the future? >> get your business online in minutes with godaddy arrow. >> it's odd how in an instant

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>> right now, the former national enquirer publisher, david pecker, is on the stand and donald trump's hush money criminal trial, and joining us now, an attorney who at one time represented trump, tim parlatore and i know we've got communications back. those watching. we know we had an issue, but we're good now, tim, so let me start with they're there in the room right now and i'm trying to get your sense of trump's mindset right now. the context on it, of course, is that he's been in that room all de we're nearing maybe the end of david pecker is direct testimony and the judge has indicated cause for at least four of the alleged gag order violations since against trump at the prosecution brought justice this morning i mean, i think that his his mood is probably much the same as it's been throughout. >> i think he's this is incredibly frustrating for him to have to sit there and not be allowed to stand up and defend themselves and to not be the

person in charge. and so i think that that's continuing and i think that the gag order ruling is certainly going the only compound that so i can certainly see an immense amount of frustration there an immense amount of frustration and also i'm curious what you make of the people who are surrounding him. >> i'm not talking about his attorneys, obviously, they're in they're doing their job, but when he just walked back into the room, tim, after the lunch break one of the individuals with him from his current inner circle is boris epshteyn aboard stuff, of course, was di did last night and for election fraud and the state of arizona he's there front and center with trump, right now what do you read into that? >> i mean, i think he's probably trying to make some kind of a statement that he standing by boris here, notwithstanding this new indictment boris is has been

there for awhile and it's kind of well-publicized. my differences with boris. i never i never had a problem with the client directly. my problem is always with me people around them, specifically boris and so anybody who's hoping that this indictment we remove him at least for now, it appears that's not happening no, it's certainly appears it's not, but it also shows that the current legal team that boris epshteyn is still there. you still like getting fact or he's still there in that room? >> what do you what do you think that means trump case well, you got to remember todd blanche was brought in as boris is lawyer initially. and so boris brought him in to represent himself in the jack smith investigation. then he expanded his role to also cover these other cases and cod has an obvious affinity and loyalty to boris one that people like myself in jim trusty did not

have so tim, i want to ask you at some of the evidence coming in now pecker is david pecker is of course, on the stand. >> at this moment, but there was something earlier that happened right before the lunch break. there was a text message between dylan howard, the editor in chief of the national enquirer, and what they describe as essentially a first-degree family member, i guess an immediate family member now, i'm going to tell you what the text says, but right now the defense raise an objection, so it's unclear whether this tax will be allowed to be shown to the jury. the discussion about it happened with the jury was not in the room. but the text is very significant, perhaps him it dylan howard texts, this family member, quote, of trump, at least if he wins, i'll be pardoned four election fraud. again, dylan howard, the editor in chief of the national enquirer, who was leading up so many of these catch and kill payoffs. and then packers now testifying to himself and dylan howard being at the white house for what pecker calls was a thank you dinner from trump for

the work that they did to help him get elected what is the significance of this? and a text like that? >> they are able to get it admitted for the jury. what could it mean texts like that are problematic because it's certainly shows the somebody at least believed that they were committing a crime at the time i heard about how pecker also said that he didn't know at the time that this was a campaign finance violations. the problem is that neither one of those two individuals are lawyers and they don't know for a fact whether it is, it campaign finance violations. >> this this type of activity is something that the supreme court's decision in citizens united it it's an open question as to whether it is even is illegal. so i think that that's one of the things since is that they have to have the court rule on. is this something that actually has probative value that they knew that their committing a crime or is it more of a joke or is this something that that he saying this just simply not true? so i think that we really

need the judge to weigh in and make a clear ruling on whether there was illegality in this in light of the citizens united decision right. >> and that of course we don't have a ruling from the judge on that. there had been an objection and as we know, a sidebar conversation, but we don't yet have that. all right, tim, thanks so much. glad to speak with you. >> all right. thank you tim. >> all right. tim parlatore and our special coverage continues ahead live from. >> the nation's, capital, one of the most unforgettable nights in dc that's wonderful. >> read back here again, president biden and comedian collin joseph headline the light house correspondents dinner live saturday at seven eastern on cnn. >> we had take our old gas heating and radiant heat that was a really, really huge project. who has the type as a toddler mom, i do not i was so overwhelmed. so i started

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for his criminal trial, the united states supreme court heard arguments here in washington about whether presidents have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution. >> all this relates to the charges accusing trump of conspiracy an election interference after his defeat in 2020 cnn's chief legal affairs correspondent, paula reid has been following the arguments for us all day. paula, give us the big takeaways of what the justices said well, if it's clear that a majority of the supreme court is not likely going to be willing to just toss the special counsel's federal prosecution of the former president. but it's still unlikely that any trial would happen soon. justice kagan really crystallized one of the big issues with throwing this case out at the beginning, noting that the point of founding this country was to get away from a monarch who had absolutely no accountability. but then it becomes a question of, okay, well, how much accountability does a president have when it comes to the criminal justice system? and

there was a really important exchange between justice amy coney barrett, of course, appointed by trump, and trump's lawyer first, where she got them really for one of the first times to concede that some of the acts that are detailed in a special counsel's indictment really weren't part of trump's official job when he was in the white house. let's take a listen you can see the private acts don't get immunity we do. >> okay. and i want to know if you agree or disagree about the characterization of these acts is private petitioner turned to a private attorney, was willing to spread knowingly false claims of election fraud to spearhead is challenges to the election results. private dining would dispute the allegation, but sounds private. it sounds private petitioner conspired with another private attorney who caused the filing blinken chord of a verification signed by petitioner that contain false allegations to support a challenge. >> sounds bright. >> three private actors to attorneys, including those mentioned above, and a political consultant helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to

obstruct the certification proceeding and petitioner and a coconspirator attorney directed that effort you ready to quickly i believe that it's private that's really significant. >> so a revision for what we've heard in the past. so the chief justice really laid out the next issue, which is that he and the other justices don't believe that the lower courts spent enough time when they rejected trump's argument, trying to suss out what exactly is an official act? what was he doing in his private capacity? so off it seems like we're we're going here. is that the court will likely set up some kind of test or parameters or the court will lay out how you figure that out, but then it sends the entire case back to the lower courts to be real litigated, possibly making its way up to the supreme court but this is why, even if trump doesn't win here legally, it's still a strategic win for him because the whole point has been to delay. and if he is reelected, he can make this entire case go away. so the question now is, how quickly do we get this answer from the supreme court? and if they toss

it back down, how long does it take this case to move forward? will it happened before? or november? >> seems unlikely. >> if he said it back to a lower court, that would delay delay delay it. that would be a huge win, at least in the short term for the former president who wants this delayed until after the election, are paula, thank you very, very much and stay with cnn are special coverage is about to continue the sinking of the titanic. >> how would really happen, especially while we're premiere sunday at nine on cnn upon his first day of retirement, markers, rogers made a contract with themselves. i will never again work on another man or woman oh, todd especially common. >> i lay down my badge abandoned my corporate phone plan, and i'll get a new plan with consumers cellular without a contract, without sacrificing

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8085920400 welcome back to our special coverage of the first ever criminal trial of a former president of the united states i'm wolf blitzer in the nation's capital, erin burnett, is outside donald trump's hush money trial in new york. >> today, the former president's legal cases, they are colliding he's in that happen in a manhattan courtroom and some of his lawyers, we're here in washington trying to convince the united states supreme court that he should be shielded from federal charges. but aaron trump didn't hear those historic arguments at the supreme court yeah no well, if he didn't because he was in that courtroom, as you said, here in manhattan behind me here heard more testimony from his onetime friend, david pecker, the former tabloid executive, has been questioned now for more than five hours, all in and throughout today, he is still on the stand and a key

moment just played out as pecker recalled, a conversation that he had with trump's former attorney and fixer, michael cohen. >> it's conversation happened after cohen and received a letter from the federal elections commission and pecker tells cohen, quote, we committed a campaign violation cohen's response according to pecker said he wasn't worried because quote jeff sessions is the attorney general and donald trump hasn't been his pocket all right. >> kara scannell, phil mattingly are with me. all right. so i mean that's in black and white from both them. we committed it campaign violation and this was in response the response which is jarring to read, i think the one caveat here is that this is michael cohen and perhaps he was being blustering are being boisterous because no question that the former president thought many of the cabinet officials were at his explicit direction. but the context of the started conversation where this came out was the prosecution walking pecker through the non-prosecution

agreement that ami reached with justice department's has a lot of facts inside it within it but it's also i believe as judge merchan framed, it is. >> this is how you're able to this should help you assess the credibility of the witness that you've been listening to over the course of the last several days and the prosecution wants that credibility to be very well understood. but i think when we're talking about during the commercial break, you see the comment from michael cohen that don't don't worry about that thing from the fec because the justice attorney general is in the current president foot now former president's pocket, but also there's another conversation that was read out just a little while earlier, which was that there had been a conversation, a phone call that pecker was on with sarah huckabee sanders than a white house official and hope hicks, close adviser to the former president and then a white house official about extending the agreement that am i had reached with karen mcdougal. so when you talk about whether or not that has an impact on the case itself. but again, getting a window into not just trump's pre white house operations but now even the white house having

actual white house staff on the phone talking about disagreement and extending it in, recommending that it'd be extended. again, paint a fuller picture of not just the former president as an individual or the foreign president before he took office. but who knew in the white house and how important they thought it was to keep this going and care. >> what do you make of what we're seeing right now, packer right now on the statement, they're having read the agreement, read the statement of facts line by line. >> right. and this is the i'm prosecution agreement that am i reached with the us trainees office for the southern district of new york, right? when they were investigating michael cohen, which ultimately led to michael cohen's guilty plea of campaign finance violations. and this statement of facts that's part of it. deal is literally what david pecker has been testifying to this meeting at trump tower in august 2015 when this alleged conspiracy was reached between donald trump, michael cohen cohen, and david pecker. and then going through the karen mcdougal deal in great detail. so the prosecutor is having david pecker go through and identify that as karen mcdougal. that's a reference to this this person all too back

up because this is a legal document, all to backup the testimony that pecker is just given. >> what thing at one point where the statement of facts first to a presidential candidate running for election in the united states of america. >> he said, i know this is silly question, but who are you referring to or who does that refer to and pecker had to point to donald trump right? >> an interesting, i think also, what do you make kara having been in the room so much at the lawyers, having to choose this to be pecker, to actually have to read it aloud to the jury. and now we're seeing the description trump's sitting back in his chair as arms folded across his chest, he appears to be reading the non-prosecution agreement on the screen in front of them. >> yeah. i mean, this is the thing when there's evidence that's introduced, it goes up on these monitors and every juror has the monitor right in front of them. and donald trump has won it in front of him and so they can all follow along. but they're having when prosecutors do this, they're underscoring. they could just put up the document until the jury they can read it later. it's now entered into evidence the exclamation point strategy,

yes. they are underscoring each element of this to say that what you just heard from david pecker is backed up by this document. and so they want to really just use it to right. to bolster his credibility with the jury and the judge gave an instruction on this to st. of the jury. you can infer donald trump's guilty because david pecker agreed to sign a non-prosecution agreement they're not supposed to use it that way, but it certainly is making it quite clear that david pecker admitted that he committed a crime here. he just didn't get prosecuted for it because he cooperated. >> and obviously you've been in a rooms so much but refill you spending so much time covering the former president and seeing him. the description here sitting back in a chair with his arms folded across his chest, that particular motion expression i know we're supposed to you to read all kinds of things into body language. but even for him, there are certain moments where he actually does the arms cross. >> yeah, the one that comes to mind is i believe there's either a g7 or nato meeting where he's surrounded by foreign leaders that it became like this famous picture with

angela merkel, like leaning over the table and it looked like he was being barraged by foreign leaders who disagreed with his policy or his positions on these things. and it was very much like the epa kidsteam frame. that this is america first, this is him standing up against european allies, but it became a famous pose and pastor and you've seen many pictures on it. >> it gets described as that as as well. >> i continue to go back though. is as he's doing this right now the lack of reaction that we've seen three throughout, this is about as a motive, as he has gotten based on our you going in the courtroom based on our team that's been watching him safe for passing some notes, whispering to his lawyer every once in a while, we'll see what he says afterwards. the steam is hey, clear, he's going to be speaking after court. he's been doing that regularly is definitely going to do that today. but keeping things very much controlled and contained, right? >> and we'll see you when he speaks, sayyed does the prosecution come in alleged more gag order violations as they didn't? good they got four through so waiting on the original ruling of what was in ten or 11 of them. all right. karen fill we're all here. wolf down to you all right. >> aaron. thanks very much. and

we're just getting worried that pecker is confirming now in the course of this trial that he signed what was called a cooperation agreement with the manhattan district attorney's office back in october of 2019? right and that he's he's testifying about that. >> what do you make? yes. so first of all, this signals to me to prosecutors are about wrapping up their direct examination with david pecker. this is the kind of thing you would do at the end to show the jury what is the deal that you are here under now? the history, david pecker is important. the southern district of new york federal prosecutors mild office started meeting with david pecker when they were investigating michael cohen. they ended up prosecuting michael oh, and they made a decision to give david pecker what we call a non-prosecution agreement, which is mostly what it sounds like. you will testify. we will not prosecute you, but it says in there that you, david pecker, an ami we're involved in federal campaign finance crimes. now, what happened after that? >> is the state took over the da's office and the da's office entered into it, essentially similar cooperation agreements. >> so the way the parties are going to argue this is this.

the di is going to say, look, folks, he's laying it all out on the line. he's told you everything he's got nothing to hide. his incentive right now is to tell the full truth. otherwise, he's going to lose this agreement with us. the defense, trump's team is going to say no, no, no. he's in their pocket all he wants to do is please them because they're the ones who gave him a sweetheart deal out for up to the jury. ultimately, we don't have juries usually assess these kinds of non-prosecution agreement so i'm interested to hear what eliot things, but in my experience non-prosecution and cooperation agreements usually are held up by juries. usually juries understand the deal, they get it, and what they're always looking for is corroboration. they're never going to rarely are they going to credit? david pecker, michael cohen, just for their work. they're going to say, well, how does that testimony fit in with the documents in the other testimony? >> yeah. i mean, i've prosecuted gang members and someone who have really ugly convictions in their past. and frankly, if you have enough of them saying the same thing, eventually the jury starts to believe what they're saying, but it doesn't help. now, what the prosecution he's doing is making sure to be the first

ones to point all this information out so that the defense doesn't do because the defense can weaponize it if they bring out for the first time, someone has a prosecution cooperation agreement for non-prosecution agreement, they want to come clean kind of collisionally as this testimony from pecker seems to be winding down, at least right now, pecker also testified that this may be significant. i'm anxious to get your thoughts that trump actually invited him to what was described as a thank you dinner in the white house back in 2017. is that significant for the prosecution's case? >> yes and no. in that it establishes an ongoing relationship with them, the problems they can be thanking him for being a friend, could be thanking him for suppressing information from donald trump's wife and in children, which would not be a crime. >> it could help. >> and it's more evidenced that helps bolster the rest of their case, but it's certainly not. donald trump's not gonna be convicted on the basis of that one fact and what does it say to you? >> and the mattress led to get your thoughts as well? that the national enquirer was publishing nice things about

trump. but going after trump's arrivals for the republican nomination back in 2016, like ted cruz, marco rubio, and others. >> so it gives a sense of the scope of the catch and kill concept that sort of how much they were in the tank. well, for the foreign present. and again, a big part, this is almost like there's two parts to there are a few parts of the case. one is the relationships and the salacious stuff that we know about, but also the nuts and bolts of how did the financial transactions go down? you need both in order to be able to get the jury's heads. and i think that looking at this dinner, which is so interesting, that kind of thank you dinner pecker's also reporting that at the end of it, the president privately asked him how karen how karen was doing currently dealing karen? >> yes. referring to karen mcdougal and pecker said, she's quiet things are things are fine, but this just gives you a window into the president's thinking he's in the white house the karen mcdougal story has already been

out there. and he's inviting pecker to say, thank you for being my friend. and still is asking about karen mcdougal and i like that as a prosecutor because these details matter the jury is going to remember, i'll give you two examples. one, the journey now knows that david pecker was there in trump tower, the day donald trump announced his candidacy, they're going to remember that. and now they know that he gets invited to the white house and if you're prosecutor saying the reason david pecker was helping donald trump, that was political campaign related. well, you think about the campaign announcement, the white house, these specifics tend to stick and jurors minds honore, what do you think? >> i think it's interesting that it's we're trying to view this all through the lens of now, when back then, that might have actually been a scandal of some kind, like we're coming at this after almost a decade of like so many trump's candles, so many things that seem like this is the craziest thing that could ever happen. and at that time, they're trying to show there was incentive to the press information that they thought could sway voters because even the access hollywood tape at

that time was a big news story, was a big moment where people will ask the question, would voters still support this kind of person, et cetera and so we're asking everyone to step back and remember what it was like to think something could shock you about donald trump jr. and pecker said, on the stand today, going back to that period after the election, president elect in trump tower, james comey in the meeting, whatever they all lead. but in that conversation pecker says, he's impression was that in every conversation with michael cohen and then every interaction about this, nobody said this was out of concern of the family that he interpreted. he understood the concern to be of the campaign when the president elected the time thanking him, he and he believed that was thanking him for helping in the campaign body to your point, we are discussing allegations unproven thus far that a former president essentially silenced

porn stars on account of personal, intimate affairs to keep them from voters. and that is not the biggest legal story of the day involving that person. that it is just important to step back and realize how remarkable this all is that even the case that is regarded as the least serious one confronting the former president is very serious conduct that an any other universe any other world that rational world i don't know. there's it is embarrassing to the united states. >> you haven't used that word in awhile. >> i think we should i'm sorry. but it's a post-state shame society where this is the kind of conduct baked into the, into the whole ethos so donald trump, right i mean, the audience point, a sex scandal is actually, if you can rewind your brain like a traditional political campaign scandal well, as you don't have a magic 2016 that we'd be at the supreme court about total

immunity for the presidency related to attempting to overthrow a legitimate election. >> and and ransacked the capitol and prevent the electoral college votes for me counted like that wasn't in the imagination at the time. a traditional old sex scandal that could harm your campaign. that was the world in which we were living in a lot of this was never in our imagination as we're beginning to understand what exactly was going on, everybody standby. we're continuing your follow all the breaking news out of the hush money trial of the former president donald trump. the former tabloid executive david pecker is on the stand right now. we'll update you with the latest where we come every piece of evidence tells a story. >> how it really happened with jesse l. martin sunday at nine on cnn so how long have you lived here? 40 years and how are the restaurants around here? are they good, bad man. >> what's the average

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continue are breaking news coverage of donald trump's criminal hush money trial. the former publisher for the national enquirer, david pecker, is testifying right now, moments ago, the cooperation agreement that pecker signed with the manhattan de was shown on a screen in court and pecker read it, actually prosecutor, i didn't read it aloud. they wanted the jury not just to see it, sort of check the box, but to hear it. and one of the jurors we understand from our team inside the room who isn't attorney works as an attorney, made a visible facial expression at the agreement as he looked at it. we're also told jurors have been taking notes today and our paint paying attention. i want to bring in jury consultants, jason blum and leslie ellis. and thanks to both of you, jason, let me start with you. you've got an attorney on this panel, so somebody who knows what they're looking at, even reading this, right? and then on top of it, you have the prosecution having david pecker read this agreement allowed. what do you make of the dura,

who is an attorney's reaction to that? >> maybe the juror who's an attorney, is questioning some parts of that and that's why you're getting that sort of reaction from him it's very interesting though, and i think leslie would agree that we've got at least two jurors on this particular jury panel as well lastly when you also hear the context here that the jury is paying very close attention and taking notes. >> i remember at the very beginning, we were told more than half of them i've raised their hand when they were offered the ability to take notes. i don't know now, if it's all of them are not we'll see if we get some more color from the room to understand that. but what do you take away from that day's into this now, they're hours into a long day today and that they are sitting there avidly paying attention and taking notes i think there are a lot of reasons for why the jurors are being pretty avidly paying attention when they take notes that can mean a

couple of different things that can mean something is very important to them what we also don't know what sometimes jurors are just scribbling things down there, doodling. >> they're using it to help focus, to help stay awake, even though it is pretty engaging testimony. these are long days and it can be very uncomfortable to sit there for hours on end taking notes can be as strong indicator of engagement, but it can also mean other things. so i always caution clients not to take too much away from it and don't focus too much. i'm trying to read the tea leaves all right two significant developments here, as we're speaking, jason, the prosecution has concluded that means that pecker is done from dirac. they're going to move to cross-examination. they could start that. we'll see see how far they get over this next hour or so the court is slated to be in session, but what do you make of what the prosecution did with pecker? they have now formally concluded his direct examination yeah.

>> what i would want to note is whether or not they used pecker to connect the dots towards a crime certainly a lot of information has come out about what the former president has done in terms of paid money the role of the national enquirer. >> but did the prosecution actually connect the dots to the elements of a crime? >> is this a crime is probably what some of the jurors are wondering. some maybe even asking themselves, where's the beef how does this rise to the level of a crime? but the most telling part is going to be the cross-examination of this witness. it's more of a stress test for not only his truthfulness, but also so his bias and less of that cross-examination is set to begin, and i'll just keep you posted as it starts, but yes, it is beginning trump's attorney, emil bove, is taken in the podium to begin the cross-examination of david pecker. >> so from the perspective of the jury, they've been hearing now over several days broken

up, and i think that's important, emphasized broken up the direct examination of pecker. now you have the cross-examination starting they're not going to sleep on it. it's not going to start to morning tomorrow morning. it starting right now. what do you think about that from? what it means for the jury they will definitely have overnight before they hear the completion of the cross i'd be surprised if they finished it today so they'll have a lot of time to think about it if they choose to think about it. >> one of the things that jurors do look pretty closely at what when it comes to direct versus cross-examination is the demeanor of the witness. and day today, how does that demean or change or not? so jurors focus quite a lot on the content of what witnesses say, but they also focus on the demeanor that ange from direct across data de morning to afternoon depending on the content. and if they can draw any connections between how a

witness is acting in the subject of what it is they're testifying about at that moment. >> all right. jason, leslie, thank you both very much and much more of our special live coverage continues here as david pecker is now under cross-examination by the defense team as of just a moment ago, here in manhattan the white house correspondents dinner live saturday at seven eastern khan, cnn, shallow cancer is, it's hard, but st. jude has gotten us through it since jude has hope for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world life is better with the credit gods on your sayyed rewards once available to the view, are now accessible to the many credit one bank get cashback rewards. >> and liz large vital window

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the breaking news as former national enquirer publisher, david pecker testifies in donald trump's hush money criminal trial in new york. our panel of experts or is back with us, write down and elliott williams prosecution has concluded their questioning more than at least five, six hours. it went on and on and on. now the defense is cross-examining as we all know, did the prosecution achieve what they were trying to achieve? yes. what they were trying to achieve is number one, put david pecker in the room with donald trump in august 20 2015, pardon me. >> but put the two of them in the room, established the scheme establish an understanding of how catch and kill and the business model of ami and the national enquirer or worked, they needed to do that. >> now, again, you put the testimony out in the world and then have the defense have their way with them and they are going to beat him up. we're seeing it now on the screen as well. they're ready talking about his profit motive merely saying, oh, you weren't a charity sort of saying that

we'll look, you run this to make the money to. but but as far as what prosecutors needed to do, of course, they succeeded because right now trump's attorney is asking me pecker to describe other instances where ami american media inke that's the parent company of the national enquirer, would purchase a story including sometimes quote, as leverage against the celebrity. >> yeah, this is the place where adi and i disagree a little bit about the how people regard journalists and journalism whether they see it as that's just, it's just an achy business and this is just another extension of it. or if jurors will regard what they see here as something so distasteful that they'll hold it against this particular windows we tend to take the view that people just find this stuff disgusting. and the defense is really sort of wagging the child, so i don't technically consider it journalism, but for saying that, pardon? but i like you guys pointing this out about the leverage against a celebrity because again, it's trying to pull this out of the column of campaigns elections, where the prosecutor wants the

public, as well as the jury to think about this to say actually, there's a whole range of reasons why you operate the way you do. and it's not just because you really wanted to help this person who wanted to be president and i think it's going to be interesting to see how this former publisher starts to justify all of that kind of work. >> they want to show that he has a lot of self-interest in this than he was he was gaining access through donald trump and using donald trump also in many ways. but i think the main thing about david pecker is that he's going to be the key corroborating witness for michael cohen, humans, we all know has some credibility issues here. and while they may try and use the non-prosecution agreement as a way to check challenge pecker's credibility i think that they went a long way towards establishing that pecker was a truth teller here and had nothing to hide since he was under some obligation to tell well, the truth as the

result of the non-prosecution agreement. so when when when michael cohen comes to testify, they can then say, well, you were at this meeting with david pecker. you had this phone conversation with david pecker. and so there'll be able to tell the same story. and i think that's really important. i know we've been focused on the feud between cohen and trump had said throughout bitcoin has also spent the last two to three years on this crusade to rehabilitate his image& to convey to the public that he understands he did some something wrong. >> and therefore, that is why he is out in the world talking the way he has now, i don't know if that will work, but i wouldn't discount the fact that he has spent the better part of this time basically trying to say look, this is a problem, right? >> i was part of it. >> and sometimes people respond to that i made a mistake, but now i'm moving on. i pay paid for it. for it. yeah. >> if you were to defense attorney representing trump right now, what would be your main goal and the

cross-examination of david pecker, three words credibility, credibility the credibility you attack the witnesses, credibility. i think you do it a few ways. they're starting with it right now by just going after the business model and the profit motives. look man, you're just out trying to make a buck here, aren't you? that's pretty sleazy and disgusting. you wouldn't use those words, but that's the implication you're making to the jury. number one. number two, i would talk about the non-prosecution agreement and number three, any cooperation agreements he might have with with law enforcement, what those last two things do is suggest that he has an incentive to not be true he's in cahoots with these visible at the defense would say and prosecution includes with the prosecutors, he's not really being straightforward. don't believe, but the prosecution says about he's afraid of getting in trouble for lying. no he's bending his story because he doesn't want to go to jail and you just hammer that point again and again and again and hope that the jury just start to miss trust that i've another question you mentioned that the august 2015 meeting that one of the things that prosecution did, was sort

of put pecker in the room with with trump. but we know there's a limited number of actual trump pecker direct interactions and so much of this was through michael cohen how problematic is it for the overall case? not at all, yours. >> well, it's what, four or five meetings be more valuable than one. of course but you have a few things you have, number one, you have pecker, michael cohen also hope hicks was in and out of that room, a former white house staffer, hope hicks, was in an out of the room and can testify as to what she saw. number to some of that the prosecutors do their jobs, will rely on financial records and you'll have people coming in and authenticating and saying where the checks were, why they were written what people knew about them. of course, more meetings would have been better, but you one can be convicted on the basis of one meeting between the defendant and meetings with donald trump don't forget. all right. and there's right. >> right. >> yeah, that's interesting, gloria, because pecker has testified that he stoked sitters trump, a friend mentor.

pecker said, and i'm quoting him now i felt that donald trump was my mentor. he helped me throughout my career. >> i think that's probably true. i think it was a mutually beneficial relationship. remember early on pecker said trump would let them know where there were parties and would invite him to parties. and that was good access for the for the newspaper and for pecker himself. it took him to a certain level of society that he wanted that he wanted to be a part of. and so i think it was competitive also it was competing with tabloids and donald trump gave him a leg up many times by feeding them information. so trump was not only a source but he he gave him access i think it worked for both of them. one other detail that we got about the pecker trump relationship, which i thought was so interesting this testimony, michael cohen, who worked for donald trump was he's complete

loyal, supplicant and aid. >> and what have you was going to pecker to help get his christmas bonus, pay that he thought rather than go to his boss directly and saying, hey, i want to make sure i get my christmas bonus. lesson, whether or not that's an allusion to other >> it's also interesting, david, that trump, i said in the course in court whatever he speaks publicly, he suggests that trump is facing several legal battles right now, as we all know, how do you think so far this is resonating with voters? >> well, i don't think we know the answer to that yet. i think i think voters are paying attention to this. some voters, i don't think all voters are paying attention to this, but i do think that this

is going to captivate the attention of some segment of the electorate, but to the point about he wishes he could be campaigning. >> there was no court yesterday. >> there was no place for donald trump to be. he wasn't on the campaign trail yesterday. so if indeed, i and now they've announced he's gonna be in michigan and wisconsin next wednesday when there's a break, but i think we have to wait and see this, how this unfolds and how much donald trump uses every moment that he's not required to be in court to actually be campaigning. we're starting to see him do it. message wise at the courthouse this morning, he made the comments about the economy and gdp and trying to be a bit more on a political message that's a development that's occurred in just the last couple of days. so i think donald trump, right before our eyes, wolf it's still figuring out how to be candidate trump in this environment. >> the caveat though that every morning literally every camera and television station in america is on him when he's

stepping out and on the way under court, he has ample opportunity if the wishes outside of the courtroom to politic all he wants which is sorting sort of interesting. the way in which he's chosen to attack the legal system and the process thursdays fridays, not on wednesdays or saturday or sunday. >> so does or three days out of the week to go to campaign if he wants to if he wants to, keywords everybody stand by. our special live coverage will continue right after this beyond saves new album is breaking records gets to say what country is comey country beyond, say a nashville's renaissance. april 26, streaming exclusively on mats hi, it's christina again. i'm here to tell you about an all new special offer from my friends at jacuzzi bathroom model that you don't want to miss. you already know jacuzzi has been making water-filled great for more than 65 years.

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right. >> the supreme court heard nearly three hours of arguments involving donald trump today, specifically his claim that american presidents have absolute immunity basically a blanket protection from being held accountable for criminal prosecution for anything they did while in office, his lawyers argued that is why trump should not face any charges in the federal criminal case. against him. >> the special counsel is accused trump of conspiracy and election interference during his final months in office. or senior supreme court analyst joan biskupic was in the room as justices heard the arguments. and don't actually be in that room. and we could hear obviously some of the back-and-forth, but you're there seeing the players, seeing the interactions one thing that stood out watching it was seemed to be a surprise at some of the justices did not soundly reject trump's immunity claim, like the appeals court in dc, obviously, unanimously did that's right, aaron. and it's good to see you. it truly was riveting inside the courtroom today, just what

historic moment with this untested constitutional question. but then also as you observed, how the justices came out, and really we're more sympathetic to former president donald trump's lawyer than two jack smith's counsel at the lectern there and many of their it was clear from many of their concerns that they see furious detours are off ramps that the former president and can take before any kind of trial. they might, you say, well, we're not going to give you absolute immunity. well, we're going to give you some some immunity here and some defenses for whenever a trial occurs, given the kinds of questions they were asking, the other thing, aaron, i would point up is how they really suggested a real vulnerability on the part of a former president. and let's hear first from justice samuel alito on that score yes. >> a an incumbent who loses a very close hotly contested election knows that a real

possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement. but that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent. we'll that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy. and we can look around the world and find countries where we have seen this process, where the loser gets thrown in jail and you know, aaron, that wasn't a concern just of justice alito, chief justice john roberts also just talked about what kind of asked about what kind of checks are on prosecutors in this sort of situation. >> how can we just the grand jury? and i just think that in the end, there will be more delays before any kind of trial, even if in the end they reject donald trump's outright claim of absolute immunity.

>> aaron john, thank you very much, but just even the possibility of delays, they're not that headline so many were expecting we'd walk out at the day with all right. >> we're gonna have live update on the criminal hush money trial. a former president donald trump right after this, or reporters in the room. they're now talking about other deals pecker had with other celebrities, including former governor of california honore towards and eric, we'll be right back. >> the sinking of the titanic. >> how would really happen, especially two well, with premier sunday at nine on cnn, stay team to learn more about this limited time offer from renewal by anderson have you been looking at replacing your home's windows or doors? >> if so, i'm sure price is a huge factor. >> a renewal by anderson. >> we're really proud of our fair pricing policy were typical middle-class family, we have a budget, we need to be

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when others divide. we unite. with real solutions to help our kids. like community schools. neighborhood hubs that provide everything from mental health services to food pantries. academic tutoring to prom dresses. healthcare to after care. community schools can wrap so much around public schools. ...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org it out at shine.com. manu raju on capitol hill in this is cnn right now, former tabloid executive david pecker is on the stand. >> he's being cross-examined by trump's defense lawyers, pecker, just confirmed that he had been giving donald trump a heads-up about negative stories about trump for about 17 years

before the 2016 presidential election seen as grinch ingress is joining us right now, brin, take us through what's happening now yeah. >> well, i mean, right out of the gate, trump's defense team is chipping away at the credibility of this witness, who for more than six hours was on the stand trying to build credibility according to the prosecution's testimony there. right. >> we are just like your said, seeing the defense based it's likely say that david pecker and trump, they had a relationship for decades and it was mutually beneficial that pecker made money for his newspaper when the headlines that red trump and that, you know, these catch and kill stories didn't exactly just happened prior to the election. they happen more than a decade prior he would give trump the heads-up about a story and they would let them know that this is something that's out there in the public. and so he even pointed out defense the defense team that the term catching

kill pecker wasn't even aware of that term until a prosecutor a prosecutor actually brought that up. to him. one of the things they also talked about is they brought in arnold schwarzenegger and the fact that he was the former governor, of course, of california& that there were dozens of people that came to the national enquirer with stories about him. and they were trying to explain to jurors that this wasn't an unusual thing in this exchange. let me read it to you. it says this relationship kingship, you have with president trump is a mutually beneficial relationship. >> you would similar relationships with other people. >> the defense attorney said, i did. pecker replied, confirming there were other people who would promote in the national enquirer and give a heads up about negative stories. so the defense team really trying to show this was not an unusual relationship that there was no wrongdoing here here, again, doing it right out of the gate. now i do think it's interesting. again, they spent more than six hours the prosecution building the credibility of david pecker. they had his testimony. they had brought jurors inside the room in discussions that he

would have with michael cohen, with donald trump, they would back it up with text messages. they would talk about all the discrete ways that hey, would have these sort of back-and-forth conversations are agreements are negotiations and so it'll be interesting to see how the jurors of, you know, take in this cross-examination who read out of the gate, it's going through sort of chipping away again at this credibility of pecker brynn gen. grass reporting for aspirin fact, you very much in our special coverage will continue right after a break welcome to the world of spycraft garage glued to the action. let's get down. let's get funky what are you concealing you a communist sympathizer supervisor streaming exclusively on macs

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pressure, and improve heart health, rush to walmart and find total bce the lead with jake tapper. next on cnn and we're back we've been falling all the developments in foreign president trump's criminal trial here in new york, ongoing

right now at this moment, the x tabloid publisher, david pecker is being cross-examined by trump's lawyers. >> i finished the direct move straight to the cross. we do know the former president is set to speak at the conclusion of today's testimony at 4:30. pm, wolf and of course, we'll bring you those comments. >> i'll be coming up at about a half an hour or so. all of this on the same de the us supreme court heard arguments on trump's absolute immunity claims. a truly historic day thank you very much for joining us, aaron for joining me and erin for our special coverage. watch aaron later tonight 7:00 p.m. eastern for erin burnett outfront. i'll be back 6:00 p.m. eastern in the situation room jake tapper picks up our special coverage, right now cnn breaking news hello, and welcome to the lead. >> i'm jake tapper, donald trump's criminal hush money cover up trial is underway in manhattan right now, trump's defenste